.357 Cadet finally made it home

[mitdr774]

A piece of hot 5.56 brass launched into the side of your head from not very far away isnt exactly a fun time. A hot piece of 7.62x51 is even less fun. I have what is probably a lifetime supply of .223/5.56 range pick up brass for myself already. I just need to figure out how to get the primers out as I dont have a decapping pin that small. Maybe a mandrel thats the perfect size for the case mouth and some water will be an option.

I think Im going to run a test using Hornady 180gr XTP data and 2400 powder. I need to compare an XTP to the PC lead bullets to see of OAL is going to be different by much. I would have to check the book again, but I think the velocity range starts at 1000 fps and my top charge weight to try is 1400 fps. I may try one of my mouse fart .38 special loads in the 77/357 to see if they will even make it out the end of a rifle barrel. If those work it might be another fun one to try. 2.0gr of Trail Boss pushing a 148gr DEWC at not very fast. At least if I stuck one in the 77/357 it would be easier to get out.

[CPJ 2.0]

I’d quit shooting if I had to use a range that contained….people.

[mitdr774]

I dont have much choice right now. I live in a decent size city right next to a bigger crappier city. I cant even shoot a BB gun in my backyard without risking arrest and a felony charge for discharging a firearm in the city. Yes, my city classifies a BB gun, pellet gun, and even a bow as a firearm. I want to change that someday, but property within a reasonable distance from the work area is not affordable.

[Bigslug]

I think Im going to run a test using Hornady 180gr XTP data and 2400 powder. I need to compare an XTP to the PC lead bullets to see of OAL is going to be different by much. I would have to check the book again, but I think the velocity range starts at 1000 fps and my top charge weight to try is 1400 fps. I may try one of my mouse fart .38 special loads in the 77/357 to see if they will even make it out the end of a rifle barrel. If those work it might be another fun one to try. 2.0gr of Trail Boss pushing a 148gr DEWC at not very fast. At least if I stuck one in the 77/357 it would be easier to get out.

If you need cast bullet data, just ask. Lyman 50th Edition pretty much lives next to my laptop. Handgun data for 2400 starts with the 170 grain Keith 358429 SWC at 9.7 grains for 879 fps, and both rifle and pistol data sets max out at 13.5 grains for 1677 fps in a rifle.

I would reduce those numbers a bit for a 180 grain LFN/WFN because (a.) more weight to begin with, and (b.), the Keith bullet has a long nose that puts a large amount of the bullet's weight forward of the case, giving powder capacity that your PC's bullets won't have.

[mitdr774]

I have the Lyman book and did consult it first. The cast bullets will take up about the same case volume as a 180gr XTP. SLightly less, but close enough that Im going to call it about the same. 7.2, 8.4, 9.6, 10.8, and 12.0 charge weights. Book max is something like 12.6gr. If I dont like how 2400 performs I also have IMR 4227 to play with. I dont know if I can get enough in the case to run into trouble with that powder.

I use a lot of 4227 in my .458x1.8 and .44Mag., and my dad uses it in his .430x1.8. I should try it in .350Legend some time.

[rberg]

My grandson is one of those burning through many rounds and not even trying to shoot accurately but shooting fast emulating one of the mall ninjas he watches on YouTube, and yes I got the brass!

[mitdr774]

If people find that to be a good time at the range thats fine. I would just prefer they be mindful of where their brass is flying and maybe use the provided bench divider nets that the range has. A little courtesy goes a long way at the range. If I get tired of their blasting away I can just pack up and go home. I personally prefer quality over quantity at the range. It would also be helpful if they kept all their shots on their target as well.

I loaded up my test rounds last night. Five rounds at each charge weight for each bullet option. I suspect that with my eyes and iron sights it wont make much difference other then velocity and how that velocity works with the sights.

[CPJ 2.0]

Stupid people keep bidding up *my* Cadet. Im not out yet, but close. I looked at a few unmolested models, and they are STUPID money. Like 2500 plus. Nah. Not for a milsurp.

[Wambli Ska]

If people find that to be a good time at the range thats fine. I would just prefer they be mindful of where their brass is flying and maybe use the provided bench divider nets that the range has. A little courtesy goes a long way at the range. If I get tired of their blasting away I can just pack up and go home. I personally prefer quality over quantity at the range. It would also be helpful if they kept all their shots on their target as well.

I loaded up my test rounds last night. Five rounds at each charge weight for each bullet option. I suspect that with my eyes and iron sights it wont make much difference other then velocity and how that velocity works with the sights.

Oh not a good time at all, just a self training opportunity. I don’t shoot at public ranges because I have other options but my old private range was open to the public on weekends and as much as I avoided weekend shooting, since most of the time I had the whole place to myself during the week, sometimes it was inevitable so I made the best of it. Monday was always my best day. Again empty range and THOUSANDS of empty once fired cases ready for scooping up by me. I have enough .45, 9mm and .223/5.56 brass to last me several lifetimes. But I also got stuff that I can actually use

[mitdr774]

Doubt you will find any .45-60 laying around on the range.

I may try to get to the range tomorrow. Its supposed to be low to mid 30s in the morning and that tends to keep some people away. If I go tomorrow and take the .357 I will probably just do all my shooting at 50 yards. The other two rifles would just be to check some loads for potential and I dont have to do that at 100 yards.

[Wambli Ska]

Doubt you will find any .45-60 laying around on the range.

I may try to get to the range tomorrow. Its supposed to be low to mid 30s in the morning and that tends to keep some people away. If I go tomorrow and take the .357 I will probably just do all my shooting at 50 yards. The other two rifles would just be to check some loads for potential and I dont have to do that at 100 yards.

Nope, no 45-60 but an inordinate amount of new 45-70 brass that I can cut down and resize easy enough

[sakodude]

Dang, love to find some 45-70 brass laying around at my range. Of course i'd have to fight Andy for it

[Wambli Ska]

It shows up here and there.

[mitdr774]

I think I have come across one piece of .45-70 brass at the range and it was trashed. Looked like someone needed a flat blade screwdriver and tried to make one out of a brass case. Spoiler, it didnt look like it worked well.

[Justsomedude]

Stupid people keep bidding up *my* Cadet. Im not out yet, but close. I looked at a few unmolested models, and they are STUPID money. Like 2500 plus. Nah. Not for a milsurp.

And people think I'm crazy when I say the world is overpopulated. If you decide to bail on it and can tell the other guy really wants it, drive up the price just to be a dìck.

[mitdr774]

Quick range report without much excitement. Time to get the excuses out first.... Its cold, my right eye is irritated, I dont do well with open sights, I needed to eat soon, I have never shot this rifle in this configuration, ect. With that out of the way, I had a whole lot of fun and snickering when shooting it today. I did come across the potential issue I was warned about with primers flowing into the firing pin hole on hotter loads. This was expected and I did find a limit with the loads I was using today. I may revisit the upper loads with a different primer in the future though. Winchester primers have always seemed soft to me.

7.2gr
Pugnose AVG 971.2 Striker AVG 912.1

8.4gr
Pugnose AVG 1116.0 Striker AVG 1084.5

9.6gr
Pugnose AVG 1261.5 Striker AVG 1243.8

10.8gr
Pugnose AVG 1416.3 Striker 1441.1 (Average of 4 for the Pugnose and 1 for the Striker)

The 10.8gr load was forcing the primer to flow into the firing pin hole and the block would have to flatten the ring back out to open. Seeing as how this is just for going out and having fun I think the 9.6gr load will be plenty though.


Bottom group is with the Pugnose and the top group is with the Striker. Disregard the .243 mixed in there.

IMG_20240211_132435931.jpg (4.12 MiB) Viewed 2415 times

[Elk Creek]

Dang, love to find some 45-70 brass laying around at my range. Of course i'd have to fight Andy for it

Naw, I have plenty! Wait, that’s mine!!!!

[CPJ 2.0]

is there an option to bush the firing pin hole? Or make a new whatever it is and make the hole smaller?

[mitdr774]

It is possible to remove the block and do some work to put a bushing in it. The other easier option is to just not use hot loads in it and have fun. A 180gr cast lead bullet a 1250 fps isnt exactly out of line for what the rifle is. The .310 Cadet cartridge was only pushing a 110-120gr bullet at around 1500 fps if I recall correctly. CCI primers may also reduce the primer deformation into the firing pin hole if I want to push it further, but I have a bunch of Winchester primers and 180gr cast bullets. Also, the 9.6gr load vs the 10.8gr load means an extra 81 rounds from a pound of Alliant 2400.

[Bigslug]

+1. Yeah, you can bush it in the event there's even a problem, but harder primer cups and not loading stupid are the better place to start. Between
the .38 Special spectrum, duty HP's, solids/FMJ's, and the in-between step of cast, shallow-cavity cup points, you can dial the penetration of a .357 long gun to anywhere from not much to "I didn't know this was a .375 H&H". I've got a 135 grain cast FP 9mm doing nine milk jugs at 1030fps - ponder the same diameter with 180 grains and another 200-300 fps behind it.

Yes, there's some attraction to the aspect of "MOR POWA!", but at the point you're reasonably sure the right ammo could double lung and exit a bull elk at short range, it might be time to consider the tiny action is doing enough.

You're on the mission Chris. . .I'm envious. It's probably gonna be a Ruger/Marlin for me.

[mitdr774]

Here is what is happening with the primers. Keep in mind it's a Winchester small pistol magnum primers. They have always seemed to be on the soft side in my past experiences.

IMG_20240211_163240903.jpg (846.72 KiB) Viewed 2384 times

The ring that is created does get slightly flattened as the breech block drops to remove the spent case. It's fairly obvious when working the lever that there is an issue.

My first two rounds from the gun were factory Sig ammunition. I do not have the box from them and do not recall the bullet weight. They were over 1800 fps though and both had the ring on the primer.

I am good with dialing back to a reasonable load for paper punching and just having fun. Next time I'm going to use a bigger target paster that I can actually seen decent at 50 yards and see if it can group better with me shooting.

[CPJ 2.0]

I never use magnum pistol primers for 357 mag. My dad does, and his loads need beat out of my Blackhawk. Same charge with regular primers is fine. Upper end but not max load of H110.

[CPJ 2.0]

And the be fair (Insert Letterkenny fans) that looks like it’s smacking the poop out of the primer. Ain’t no lack of penetration.

[mitdr774]

I used them because I had them on hand and was hoping the primer cup would be a little tougher. Chances are that I will.justnload up a bunch of the 9.6 gr load and call it good. Maybe even drop it slightly and be less concerned about precision on the powder charge. I don't think it will make much difference if I drop to 9.0gr and accept 8.9-9.1 charge weights. Chances are that my eyes are a bigger factor in the group size than the difference in charge weight will be.

The firing pin indents on the primers did surprise me. Must be a big ass firing pin and it don't think I need to worry about a weak strike on a primer.

I had a load that I tried in my GP100 that left the brass colored primer and case looking like one piece. Needless to say one test rounds was enough on that loading. Prior to and since that round, I had/have never had a primer flatten out enough to make it look like the back of the case was just one piece of metal. Oddly enough the empty dropped out just fine.

[CPJ 2.0]

Looking at it again, I don’t think it’s that the loads are that hot, but the firing pin hole is too big. The primers are still radiused.
I think it’s just a hot dog in a hallway firing pin.
Which….can be “fixed” by loading down. Which in reality, a few hundred FPS (if that) ain’t gonna make a bit of difference.