AimPoint ACRO 3.5 MOA RDS

[Bigslug]

Question
What impact does the additional mass of a RDS mounted on the slide impact cycle reliability due to a slower cycle time? Shouldn’t a lighter recoil spring be used?

It's not really an issue for two reasons:

1. They mill a chunk of steel out of the existing slide, and that's generally being replaced with aluminum or titanium-bodied optics, so while in all likelihood the slide has gained SOME weight, it's not as much as the appearance would suggest.

2. Military-grade autoloading rifles are typically engineered to dump more gas into the gas system than is needed when all the parts are spotlessly clean and lubed in order to ensure it'll still run when dirty and dry. A smart engineer on a pistol project will be thinking the same way. The standard GI recoil spring for a 1911 is 16#, and I've long maintained that the gun is happier running on an 18.5#. . .IF you assume that you aren't going to be subjecting the gun to a mud, sand, and rust test. If you have the extra drag, you don't want the extra spring.

In short, the guns are made to run when full of crap that will cause more drag than the small weight of red dot sight.

[Wambli Ska]

Hmmmm Glocks are probably engineered to run with a pound of mud caked on the slide. A CZ shadow might behave differently.

I haven’t cleaned my G47 in over two years and an insane amount of rounds. Not proud of that. But, I haven’t.

Oopsie.

You could just throw it in the dishwasher and give Bigslug a heart attack..

[Bigslug]

Hmmmm Glocks are probably engineered to run with a pound of mud caked on the slide. A CZ shadow might behave differently.

I haven’t cleaned my G47 in over two years and an insane amount of rounds. Not proud of that. But, I haven’t.

Oopsie.

You could just throw it in the dishwasher and give Bigslug a heart attack..

Brother. . .I've SEEN things. . .HORRIBLE things. . . the dishwasher incident was merely the biggest facepalm

With the Gen 3 and Gen 4 .40's, I came to the conclusion that I'd rather see the gun not cleaned at all rather than cleaned wrong. The firing pin and firing pin safety seemed to eat each other's engagement surfaces on those guns, and the huge amount of CLP/carbon sludge that a lot of well-meaning operators forced into the firing pin and extractor channel seemed to accelerate that. The guns still RAN, and since the FPS is a redundant safety anyway, they were in no danger of a Sig-drop discharge. . .but they still failed the FPS push-off function test, so, new parts.

Now these Gen 5 9mm's - freakin' phenomenal. They've got that vertical ramp surface on the right side of the trigger mechanism housing that serves to keep the FPS elevated even after the slide cycles back off the trigger bar, so no chatter wear occurs. I still wouldn't recommend filling the slide cavities with paste from powdered Cascade detergent, and yes, I speak from experience.

To get back to the thread, I think my newest cause for mild coronary incidents is going to be using the red dot as the primary leverage point for cycling the slide. YES! We know you can do it. YES! If you're injured and that's all you've got, by all means do what you have to to keep lead going downrange. Just know that those dweebie little wimp screws holding your sight onto your gun don't like it.

[GrapeApe]

<snip>
To get back to the thread, I think my newest cause for mild coronary incidents is going to be using the red dot as the primary leverage point for cycling the slide. YES! We know you can do it. YES! If you're injured and that's all you've got, by all means do what you have to to keep lead going downrange. Just know that those dweebie little wimp screws holding your sight onto your gun don't like it.

Yeah I've seen some "experts" that didn't TOUCH the slide. They slapped the SRO for EVERY thing
I can't wait to hear them blame the manufacturer when the screws finally say, "Screw it, I'm outta here"

[Zee]

I don't begrudge anyone their skateboard taped Glock, but never had the need. My palms are fine, it's the REST of me that sweats.

Soft office hands gain a more mailable grip on a gun. Unfortunately, I’m plagued with hard callused mitts.

My callused Carney hands need all the help that can get.
I’ve been improving my gun grip over the past year. In regards to what fingers are gripping where and how I “set my wrists”. I’ve modified and improved about everything I can as to human interface. Adding the grip tape is just icing on the cake.

[Japhy]

We will know ACRO RDS are ready for prime time when they come with milled groves for an improved grip in foul conditions.

Next question
What is the typical temp range for RDS?
What about condensing humidity
I have a Holosun haven’t looked it up but MIL spec it ain’t

[Zee]

We will know ACRO RDS are ready for prime time when they come with milled groves for an improved grip in foul conditions.

Next question
What is the typical temp range for RDS?
What about condensing humidity
I have a Holosun haven’t looked it up but MIL spec it ain’t

I’m sure it varies from manufacturer. Have not had any condensation in mine. Probably nitrogen purged or something similar.

[Wambli Ska]

Most of the higher quality one are IP rated so they are sealed.

[Bigslug]

We will know ACRO RDS are ready for prime time when they come with milled groves for an improved grip in foul conditions.

Improved grip? On WHAT? The slides have serrations - probably even up front these days -for a reason. Use them.

Believe me - the LAST thing you want on a pistol red dot are things that encourage the operator to do anything but adjust the brightness and change the batteries. The pistol may be bomb-proof, and the sight might make a reasonable attempt at it, but we do not yet have a standardized way to attach the two that can truly be called "durable" in the AK-47 sense of the word. Deliberately levering on your sight is not smart. Glock has begun offering agencies pistols with slides that are pre-milled for specific optics, and the "sort-of, but-not-exactly-Picatinny" rail system of either the ACRO or Holosun 509T are the most monkey-resistant option we could get with that "large purchase" option right now. Only real problem there is that we are in the early days of this tech and dealing with something of a "footprint war" in which nobody wants to mass-market a pistol that can only take one optic. Not when there's a better mousetrap every other month. So we're likely to be stuck with adapter plates and their dweeby little wimp screws for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try not to beat on your sight.

[CPJ 2.0]

We will know ACRO RDS are ready for prime time when they come with milled groves for an improved grip in foul conditions.

Improved grip? On WHAT? The slides have serrations - probably even up front these days -for a reason. Use them.

Believe me - the LAST thing you want on a pistol red dot are things that encourage the operator to do anything but adjust the brightness and change the batteries. The pistol may be bomb-proof, and the sight might make a reasonable attempt at it, but we do not yet have a standardized way to attach the two that can truly be called "durable" in the AK-47 sense of the word. Deliberately levering on your sight is not smart. Glock has begun offering agencies pistols with slides that are pre-milled for specific optics, and the "sort-of, but-not-exactly-Picatinny" rail system of either the ACRO or Holosun 509T are the most monkey-resistant option we could get with that "large purchase" option right now. Only real problem there is that we are in the early days of this tech and dealing with something of a "footprint war" in which nobody wants to mass-market a pistol that can only take one optic. Not when there's a better mousetrap every other month. So we're likely to be stuck with adapter plates and their dweeby little wimp screws for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try not to beat on your sight.

I smell some science coming.

[shotgunshooter3]

Only real problem there is that we are in the early days of this tech and dealing with something of a "footprint war" in which nobody wants to mass-market a pistol that can only take one optic. Not when there's a better mousetrap every other month. So we're likely to be stuck with adapter plates and their dweeby little wimp screws for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try not to beat on your sight.

Couldn't disagree more. If anything the industry is streamlining mounting footprints. We've gone from having a proprietary mounting platform for each brand (Doctor, Sig, Vortex, RMR, DPP, etc et all) to essentially three that actually matter: Delta Point Pro, RMR, and ACRO (RMSc gets an honorable mention on smaller guns that can't use a RMR footprint). No optics maker with an ounce of sense is introducing a proprietary footprint anymore, or if they are they come from the factory with an adaptor for one of the major ones (IIRC the Holosun 509T comes with a RMR footprint adaptor). Additionally, given that the DOD adopted the DPP footprint (with a closed emitter optic that can mount on it, no less) that's one step closer to standardization.

I don't see the RMR footprint going away anytime soon, but objectively DPP makes a lot of sense. It's the biggest of the major footprints, which allows more real estate for adaptor plates to RMR or ACRO, and it can also use burlier screws (the screws that mount the optic to my M17 are probably twice the size of my RMR screws on my direct milled Glock 19). I'm just a keyboard commando in the gun space, but IMO the most promising implementation is the Sig Romeo-M17 RDS. Closed emitter, integrated rear BUIS, mounts to a modified DPP footprint.

My pipe dream, which could actually come to fruition, is seeing DPP, ACRO, and RMSc becoming THE three RDS mount footprints. A girl can dream.

[Bigslug]

My pipe dream, which could actually come to fruition, is seeing DPP, ACRO, and RMSc becoming THE three RDS mount footprints. A girl can dream.

Mine is for all of them to go away and get replaced with three, maybe four widths of Picatinny-esque mounting rails milled onto the slide to cover different categories of slide width. Call them RDS Small, Medium, Large, and Extra Large, and stamp the appropriate initials on the mounting surface just like it is on the label of your underwear to minimize the chance of Bubba getting it wrong. No more adapter plates. No more threaded holes in the slides. Buy the red dot in the appropriate size and clamp it to your slide with the provided one, possibly two beefy cross-screws that will comfortably take 20-25 inch pounds. . .or 40, for when Bubba gets it.

We've had things like Badger and Leupold MK4 rings to hold optics onto rifles enduring hard use for a few decades now. Given that a pistol slide is pulling A LOT more G's than a heavy .308 ever will, it seems perfectly reasonable to apply a similar mounting concept to handguns.

[Japhy]

The RDS on my Ruger MKII has significantly improved my technique that applies to other pistols as well. I can now hold the 10 ring at 25yds about 70% of the time on a B16 with the RDS slightly less with the iron sights. That is a very significant improvement that I attribute to discovering and correcting errors in form. I am a fan of RDS at the range. Mr Z has noted this in his posts a few times.

Now lets think about an RDS on EDCs. All slide action pistols are designed as defensive. They are meant for close range large targets 8 in at 10yds. A defensive weapon needs to operate every time (availability) and all the time (reliability) and quickly. Every component in the system reduces both reliability and availability. Speed ranks far above accuracy (repeatability). Speed is determined by the human and requires training and constant practice. A 10 yard 8 in target should only require a fixed front sight with excellent form.

Now look at what is introduced with a RDS. A quick look at the Holosun 407 as an example.
I identified the following mechanical components:
DPP Mounting plate with a dove tail and a set screw.
Two Mounting screws connecting the RDS to the plate
Internal battery connectors to mechanically connect the battery to the circuit board.
Battery Tray
Battery Tray Screw
Battery Tray Seal Ring
Two mechanical switches to control on, off, mode, brightness, and shake awake
Rotary encoder to control windage
Rotary encoder to control elevation
Shake awake sensor
Three optical components, objective lens, beam splitting lens, rear lens
Printed circuit board with wired connections to emitter, controls
Surface mounted electrical components on the printed circuit board

The product was designed and built with commercial grade components. The next step up is automotive grade which are screened to a higher temperature range and finally MIL spec parts then Space rated parts. The retail price of this RDS indicates only commercial grade components were used.
A single mechanical failure in any of the above results in an operational failure. Exposure to heat, freezing temperatures, condensation, water intrusion, or prolonged vibration will accelerate failure. This product WILL fail at some time. Bottom line if your life depends on your EDC stick to fixed sights, concentrate on technique and practice speed drills on a realistic target size and skip the electronics.

[Zee]

IMG_8767.gif (479.18 KiB) Viewed 3256 times

[CPJ 2.0]

The RDS on my Ruger MKII has significantly improved my technique that applies to other pistols as well. I can now hold the 10 ring at 25yds about 70% of the time on a B16 with the RDS slightly less with the iron sights. That is a very significant improvement that I attribute to discovering and correcting errors in form. I am a fan of RDS at the range. Mr Z has noted this in his posts a few times.

Now lets think about an RDS on EDCs. All slide action pistols are designed as defensive. They are meant for close range large targets 8 in at 10yds. A defensive weapon needs to operate every time (availability) and all the time (reliability) and quickly. Every component in the system reduces both reliability and availability. Speed ranks far above accuracy (repeatability). Speed is determined by the human and requires training and constant practice. A 10 yard 8 in target should only require a fixed front sight with excellent form.

Now look at what is introduced with a RDS. A quick look at the Holosun 407 as an example.
I identified the following mechanical components:
DPP Mounting plate with a dove tail and a set screw.
Two Mounting screws connecting the RDS to the plate
Internal battery connectors to mechanically connect the battery to the circuit board.
Battery Tray
Battery Tray Screw
Battery Tray Seal Ring
Two mechanical switches to control on, off, mode, brightness, and shake awake
Rotary encoder to control windage
Rotary encoder to control elevation
Shake awake sensor
Three optical components, objective lens, beam splitting lens, rear lens
Printed circuit board with wired connections to emitter, controls
Surface mounted electrical components on the printed circuit board

The product was designed and built with commercial grade components. The next step up is automotive grade which are screened to a higher temperature range and finally MIL spec parts then Space rated parts. The retail price of this RDS indicates only commercial grade components were used.
A single mechanical failure in any of the above results in an operational failure. Exposure to heat, freezing temperatures, condensation, water intrusion, or prolonged vibration will accelerate failure. This product WILL fail at some time. Bottom line if your life depends on your EDC stick to fixed sights, concentrate on technique and practice speed drills on a realistic target size and skip the electronics.

Or, what if…..the fixed sights were also in view?
AMAZING.

[Zee]

I have had electronic optics go down on me in use. 3 times (that I remember) in 30 years.
That’s why we have back up plans. The benefits sometimes outweigh the risk.
Of all the electronics I use in the field. Optics have died the least.

[shotgunshooter3]

Mine is for all of them to go away and get replaced with three, maybe four widths of Picatinny-esque mounting rails milled onto the slide to cover different categories of slide width.

Now you might be on to something with that idea...

[Japhy]

Central US, its summer, 95 degrees, 90% humidity. Inside your vehicle the A/C is cranked to 65 degrees, ahhh feels good. You stop for gas, step out to unfriendlies, in the encounter you reach for your RDS equipped CCW, quickly bring it to eye level and what do you see? Dripping fog! Where are the irons? They have vanished in the haze along with the target.

[breamfisher]

Occluded optics shooting is a thing. Smart folks train for it.

[Zee]

Occluded optics shooting is a thing. Smart folks train for it.

[CPJ 2.0]

Central US, its summer, 95 degrees, 90% humidity. Inside your vehicle the A/C is cranked to 65 degrees, ahhh feels good. You stop for gas, step out to unfriendlies, in the encounter you reach for your RDS equipped CCW, quickly bring it to eye level and what do you see? Dripping fog! Where are the irons? They have vanished in the haze along with the target.

Oh.
You mean like when you put tape over the front so you can’t see through and still hit the target?

[Zee]

Occluded optics shooting is a thing. Smart folks train for it.

Looking down the top right edge of my slide is the fastest for me. A more “precise” but slower option I’ve found is looking down the right side gap between the slide and frame of a Glock.

[sakodude]

Might be wrong but your CCW being concealed, on your body would it not be closer to body temp than ambient? I lived in the midwest quite a few years and don't recall my glasses fogging up getting out of the car. I am genuinely curious if this is really a concern.

[breamfisher]

I figure if a one eyed man can get hits on steel at 15 to 25 yards, with training, it's possible.

[Zee]

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not fighting for RDS on a pistol. Japhy is free to make a personal choice regarding his EDC setup. As everyone else is.
I only have 2 on mine. And overwhelmingly sans RDS. But, the two I carry 90% of the time have them, now. I was slow to warm and if the expense was mine, probably still not own any.
But, the facts and benefits are valid. They just are.
Are there some possible faults? I’m sure. But just as with firearms, quality minimizes failures.
We all make our choices and live or die by some of them. But some arguments against them simply don’t hold as much water.