Anyone on here ever shoot cast bullets through an 8x57 Mauser? I have a "Tanker" Mauser (I doubt this model ever actually existed and was made up to sell supposed surplus rifles that are not surplus rifles) in 8x57 with an 18" barrel that Im thinking of finally taking to the range tomorrow. I do have a box of MBC 205gr powder coated bullets as well as some jacketed bullets. While the main intention of taking it out tomorrow would be to shoot some 150gr jacketed, I would like to try some of the 205gr coated bullets as well.
My main concerns would be the twist rate and short barrel. If memory is correct its something like a 1:9.5 twist rate. This does seem a touch fast for pushing a lead bullet at anything close to typical 200gr velocities. I wasnt planning on pushing that hard anyways as I have had less than acceptable results pushing lead bullets past about 1700fps in just about anything I have tried them in. I believe the box is marked as a brinell hardness of 20. Between the hardness and powder coating I would expect some resistance to stripping in the rifling, but it still seems like a fairly fast twist rate for lead. Maybe im off my rocker on this though??
With the 18" barrel I dont expect impressive velocities. Its a decent size case with a decent amount of powder that could probably benefit from more barrel to more effectively use the powder. Since this is not a hunting rifle, and I dont have any ambitions of any competition shooting, I will probably use a powder I have on hand that I dont have any other planned use for instead of using up powders I have hunting loads based on. Im thinking something like IMR 3031, IMR 4198, or RL-7.
8x57 cast lead
Re: 8x57 cast lead
Fortunately, this isn't a very deep mystery.
You're right that the fast twist rate of barrels from the smokeless military bolt action era will create a velocity threshold above which cast bullets are not happy. With the 1-10" twist of the typical .30-06, many of us have found that demon to live somewhere between 2100 and 2300 fps.
There are guys ramping up their cast to jacketed velocities with impressive downrange results, but they're running custom slow-twist barrels of 1-14" to 1-16" and subjecting their bullets to quality control standards that aren't really needed for the 2000 fps ballpark.
The answer for most of us is pretty simple: make up for your lack of speed with extra bullet mass. The early smokeless/pre-Spitzer versions of these battle rifle rounds launched heavy, round nose bullets at speeds within, or not far out of the limitations of cast bullets with the fast twists. Since most of the guns still existing are running sights calibrated for the Spitzer loads, you'll often have to use your 300 yard sight setting for 100 yards, but you can at least run something akin to a service load.
Unfortunately, my 50th Edition Lyman manual doesn't list a cast bullet heavier than 165 grains for the 8x57, but there is 200 grain data for the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentine and .303 British which would serve, given that the '98 action is as strong or stronger than the rifles for those rounds.
4198 is a very popular cast bullet powder. A range of 20 to a carefully-approached 32 grains would likely get 200 grains going between 1500 and 2100 fps out of a rifle-length tube.
16 to about 22 grains of 2400 is also a pretty popular milsurp choice for cast for speeds up to around 1700 fps. 12 to about 16 grains of Unique would likely get you close to that.
You're right that the fast twist rate of barrels from the smokeless military bolt action era will create a velocity threshold above which cast bullets are not happy. With the 1-10" twist of the typical .30-06, many of us have found that demon to live somewhere between 2100 and 2300 fps.
There are guys ramping up their cast to jacketed velocities with impressive downrange results, but they're running custom slow-twist barrels of 1-14" to 1-16" and subjecting their bullets to quality control standards that aren't really needed for the 2000 fps ballpark.
The answer for most of us is pretty simple: make up for your lack of speed with extra bullet mass. The early smokeless/pre-Spitzer versions of these battle rifle rounds launched heavy, round nose bullets at speeds within, or not far out of the limitations of cast bullets with the fast twists. Since most of the guns still existing are running sights calibrated for the Spitzer loads, you'll often have to use your 300 yard sight setting for 100 yards, but you can at least run something akin to a service load.
Unfortunately, my 50th Edition Lyman manual doesn't list a cast bullet heavier than 165 grains for the 8x57, but there is 200 grain data for the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentine and .303 British which would serve, given that the '98 action is as strong or stronger than the rifles for those rounds.
4198 is a very popular cast bullet powder. A range of 20 to a carefully-approached 32 grains would likely get 200 grains going between 1500 and 2100 fps out of a rifle-length tube.
16 to about 22 grains of 2400 is also a pretty popular milsurp choice for cast for speeds up to around 1700 fps. 12 to about 16 grains of Unique would likely get you close to that.
WWJMBD?
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
Re: 8x57 cast lead
Thank you for the reply.
I will have to see what I can come up with for something in the 1500-1800 range then. Hopefully that keeps it happy as far as leading and group sizes. If i had a more steady supply 2400 I would give that a try, but its very hard to find around me for the past few years. I would have to check and see if I have any Unique. If I recall correctly I did see some data for 4198 with the 195gr. I did consult a few manuals that have a bunch of lead loads, but nothing over 200gr for cast bullets. I do have one that shows 195gr, and I will probably use that as a starting point.
The sights are not a concern since a previous owner replaced the rear sight with a scope mount and it has a 2x Burris handgun scope on it.
I will have to see what I can come up with for something in the 1500-1800 range then. Hopefully that keeps it happy as far as leading and group sizes. If i had a more steady supply 2400 I would give that a try, but its very hard to find around me for the past few years. I would have to check and see if I have any Unique. If I recall correctly I did see some data for 4198 with the 195gr. I did consult a few manuals that have a bunch of lead loads, but nothing over 200gr for cast bullets. I do have one that shows 195gr, and I will probably use that as a starting point.
The sights are not a concern since a previous owner replaced the rear sight with a scope mount and it has a 2x Burris handgun scope on it.
Re: 8x57 cast lead
This is the rifle. I'm not concerned about overall build as it's manufactured by Zastava. They were made for Mitchel's Mausers long after they would have possibly been used for the supposed purpose they were built for. It needs a Timney trigger something fierce.
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Re: 8x57 cast lead
Mitchell's Mausers. . .yeah, I remember those. That thing will be a natural for the slow pistol or fast rifle powder families.
Other propellants listed for 190+ grains in the alternate milsurp cartridges I mentioned.
SR-4759
IMR-4227
AA-5744
N133
RX7
2230 (Accurate??)
The .30-06 (lotta choices there) adds Varget, SR-7625, and Herco.
Dipping down to 190 and 200 grains in the .308, we add SR4756, 2015 (Accurate??), IMR3031, H335, IMR4895, AA#9, Varget.
If you have any of those fuels, concocting a starting load shouldn't be too hard. Basically working off similar case and bore size.
Other propellants listed for 190+ grains in the alternate milsurp cartridges I mentioned.
SR-4759
IMR-4227
AA-5744
N133
RX7
2230 (Accurate??)
The .30-06 (lotta choices there) adds Varget, SR-7625, and Herco.
Dipping down to 190 and 200 grains in the .308, we add SR4756, 2015 (Accurate??), IMR3031, H335, IMR4895, AA#9, Varget.
If you have any of those fuels, concocting a starting load shouldn't be too hard. Basically working off similar case and bore size.
WWJMBD?
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
Re: 8x57 cast lead
I put together some test loads with IMR 4198 for the 205gr cast bullets. Case fill is less than ideal compared to my normal rifle loadings. Given the small quantity of powder in the case and the charge range I found in a book for the 190gr (27-34gr), I went with 1gr increments starting at 27gr and stopping at 31gr.
The 150gr jacketed loads I put together do use IMR 3031.
The 150gr jacketed loads I put together do use IMR 3031.
Re: 8x57 cast lead
With typical smokeless, you aren't going to be rocking the 90%+ load density figures of stanadard/hot jacketed loads. Being over 50% is a critical thing so you can't have a brain fart and double charge. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it excessively.
AA5744 is a good one if you're looking for greater case fill with cast bullets - I use it for my 215 gr./2000fps .303 Brit simulated service load. I think your 4198 plan is sound.
In the .308 Winchester, Lyman listing for 3031 behind the 190 gr 311644 is a starting load of 32 grains/1943fps/22,700 CUP to max of a compressed charge of 40gr/2435 fps/48,100 CUP. Given your slightly higher case volume and slightly heavier bullet, I'd be comfortable beginning with their starting load.
As for shooting clean, I default to gas check bullet designs for anything much over 1600 fps. I would assume a sizing diameter of .323" to .325" for the 8x57, and my alloy choice would be Lyman #2 at 15BHN or harder. I don't powder coat, so can't really tell you much there, but used in conjunction with a gas check, it shouldn't matter if your using P.C. or conventional grease/wax/Alox.
If you can get 200-ish grains to around 1600-1900-ish fps and into 2-MOA, it's all the brush gun you'll ever need on this continent.
AA5744 is a good one if you're looking for greater case fill with cast bullets - I use it for my 215 gr./2000fps .303 Brit simulated service load. I think your 4198 plan is sound.
In the .308 Winchester, Lyman listing for 3031 behind the 190 gr 311644 is a starting load of 32 grains/1943fps/22,700 CUP to max of a compressed charge of 40gr/2435 fps/48,100 CUP. Given your slightly higher case volume and slightly heavier bullet, I'd be comfortable beginning with their starting load.
As for shooting clean, I default to gas check bullet designs for anything much over 1600 fps. I would assume a sizing diameter of .323" to .325" for the 8x57, and my alloy choice would be Lyman #2 at 15BHN or harder. I don't powder coat, so can't really tell you much there, but used in conjunction with a gas check, it shouldn't matter if your using P.C. or conventional grease/wax/Alox.
If you can get 200-ish grains to around 1600-1900-ish fps and into 2-MOA, it's all the brush gun you'll ever need on this continent.
WWJMBD?
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
Re: 8x57 cast lead
Well, I tried one cast load today and velocity was higher than expected and at 50 yards it had about an 8" spread. Back to the drawing board on this one. The scope set up takes some getting used to and the trigger is horrendous. I will be looking to put a Timney in it. On a side note it didn't do too bad with the first jacketed load I tried in it. It's only 50 yards, but that's about all the further I want to be shooting at a 1" dot with a 2x forward mounted scope.
I also found my new rifle/load combination for my giggle gun. I shot some 148gr DEWC/3.3gr Trail Boss loads at about 850 fps in my Cadet .357. This has the .458x1.8 with 405-410 bullets at 1050 fps beat for the giggle factor.
I also found my new rifle/load combination for my giggle gun. I shot some 148gr DEWC/3.3gr Trail Boss loads at about 850 fps in my Cadet .357. This has the .458x1.8 with 405-410 bullets at 1050 fps beat for the giggle factor.
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