Ok classic Cowboy Cartridge loaders…

[Wambli Ska]

This one is a truly niche topic. I’m thinking about developing a 405 JSP load for the 45-60. The old Winchester 1876 rifles couldn’t handle it but the new Uberti’s should have no pressure issues. I’m already shooting 350gr loads comfortably so I don’t know that another 55 grains would be an issue. I think I can get the OAL work even though the 350s are already at max length. Just kind of thinking I’d like a real 45-70 load out of my gun. Thoughts?

[PFD45]

Sounds like a REAL good reason to look for a .45-70.

[sakodude]

Whatcha going to kill with a 405 that a 350 wont? I use more 350gr bullets in my 45-70's than 405's. As a matter of fact, the only 405's I'm shooting currently are my trailboss plinkers.

[Wambli Ska]

Sounds like a REAL good reason to look for a .45-70.

Oh I already have my bucket list 45/70.

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I just want a vintage lever action option and I keep thinking that an 1886 would be nice BUT I LOVE my Centennial 1876 musket and I don’t know that I’d ever take an 1886 off the rack if the 1876 is there wanting to get out…

Besides I have the hat to match it

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[Wambli Ska]

Whatcha going to kill with a 405 that a 350 wont? I use more 350gr bullets in my 45-70's than 405's. As a matter of fact, the only 405's I'm shooting currently are my trailboss plinkers.

Well……. I’m kind’a looking to potentially splitting my time between here and maybe Montana, spend some serious saddle time and they have bigger stuff there and the 1876 is like the perfect saddle rifle to take along for rides…. Blame your buddy for putting that bug in my ear.

[sakodude]

Question still stands. I'd wager 45-60 accumulated any number of large critters in it's day so why try to make a magnum out of something that is not.

[Elk Creek]

Oh I’d say your 350 grain loads will work just fine. The extra 50 grains going slower would probably be a wash…even on grizzzz

[Bigslug]

Well. . . you could have bought that same Uberti in the the 1876's original .45-75 chambering. Bigger boiler room and a nice long neck for heavier bullets. If you want to effectively throw 405's from a toggle lock gun, that would be the place to start.

BUT. . .If I can get nine gallon jugs / six feet worth of water penetration out of a wee little 230 grain cast handgun bullet at 830 fps, I have to wonder what an extra 120 grains and 500 fps won't do for you.

[Wambli Ska]

Well. . . you could have bought that same Uberti in the the 1876's original .45-75 chambering. Bigger boiler room and a nice long neck for heavier bullets. If you want to effectively throw 405's from a toggle lock gun, that would be the place to start.

BUT. . .If I can get nine gallon jugs / six feet worth of water penetration out of a wee little 230 grain cast handgun bullet at 830 fps, I have to wonder what an extra 120 grains and 500 fps won't do for you.

The extra capacity of the 45-75 is wasted with modern propellants. It’s tough enough to get past 90% case fill in the 45-60 with the 350s as it is. These new guns are not the toggle guns of the 1800s. European standards are really strict and they are rated for modern loads or they don’t get the proofing in Europe.

[Wambli Ska]

Oh I’d say your 350 grain loads will work just fine. The extra 50 grains going slower would probably be a wash…even on grizzzz

Probably…. I’m mostly curious to know if I can get there safely and have a sledge hammer of a short range load.

[Wambli Ska]

Question still stands. I'd wager 45-60 accumulated any number of large critters in it's day so why try to make a magnum out of something that is not.

Oh it did and Winchester used to sell the gun as a Western dangerous game rifle/cartridge. I’m just so close to a 405 load that I’m kind’a curious if I can make it work. I think I’d be cool to have a short range hammer of Thor in a true saddle gun.

[sakodude]

Question still stands. I'd wager 45-60 accumulated any number of large critters in it's day so why try to make a magnum out of something that is not.

Oh it did and Winchester used to sell the gun as a Western dangerous game rifle/cartridge. I’m just so close to a 405 load that I’m kind’a curious if I can make it work. I think I’d be cool to have a short range hammer of Thor in a true saddle gun.

I suspect your 76 has a weight advantage over my Marlin 1895 CB but I can tell you hammer of Thor load in mine are anything but pleasant! I've tried 500gr cast and they loosen filling!! My business loads in that rifle are Hornady 350gr RNSP's and while not mild by any stretch, they are very manageable. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot any game with it.
Not saying you shouldn't try, just can't see any advantage to doing so in that beautiful rifle of yours.

[Bigslug]

IMR4198 is one of the more popular cast bullet propellants, and Lyman lists it from trapdoor-level .45-70 loads to Matt Quigley's .45-110 and into the toasty loads of the .450 Marlin and .458 Win Mag. I see zero reasons one couldn't dial back the trapdoor loads slightly for the reduced capacity of the .45-60 and working to a happy level.

But as I like to say, bison nearly went extinct from 400-500 grain bullets delivered at longish ranges at muzzle velocities that were pretty pokey by modern standards. You're running a brush gun at what will be a shorter stand-off distance. Whether it's 350 or 400 grains, or a cowboy or modern-level load, you'll have a higher impact speed at your distances than the bison-cullers did at theirs. A hard, non-expanding bullet out of your rifle will have enough penetration for a T-Rex, and a soft one will make a large hole deep enough for anything on the continent. A hollow point should absolutely crumple deer and pig.

My Dad's the buffalo era geek in the family, and we've played with a lot of .45-70 across the whole trapdoor to modern spectrum. You aren't going to make a flat trajectory out of it with any load, and your saddle configuration carbine isn't the platform to play the indirect fire / mortar game of the guys with the 30" Sharps, rolling blocks, and High Walls. You have an effective tool as is - little need to try to expand its box, and you aren't likely to get much practical gain if you do. Load 350's to a comfortable level and have fun with it.

[Wambli Ska]

IMR4198 is one of the more popular cast bullet propellants, and Lyman lists it from trapdoor-level .45-70 loads to Matt Quigley's .45-110 and into the toasty loads of the .450 Marlin and .458 Win Mag. I see zero reasons one couldn't dial back the trapdoor loads slightly for the reduced capacity of the .45-60 and working to a happy level.

But as I like to say, bison nearly went extinct from 400-500 grain bullets delivered at longish ranges at muzzle velocities that were pretty pokey by modern standards. You're running a brush gun at what will be a shorter stand-off distance. Whether it's 350 or 400 grains, or a cowboy or modern-level load, you'll have a higher impact speed at your distances than the bison-cullers did at theirs. A hard, non-expanding bullet out of your rifle will have enough penetration for a T-Rex, and a soft one will make a large hole deep enough for anything on the continent. A hollow point should absolutely crumple deer and pig.

My Dad's the buffalo era geek in the family, and we've played with a lot of .45-70 across the whole trapdoor to modern spectrum. You aren't going to make a flat trajectory out of it with any load, and your saddle configuration carbine isn't the platform to play the indirect fire / mortar game of the guys with the 30" Sharps, rolling blocks, and High Walls. You have an effective tool as is - little need to try to expand its box, and you aren't likely to get much practical gain if you do. Load 350's to a comfortable level and have fun with it.

So that’s kind’a where my thinking is. Not looking for flat trajectory since this is an offhand shooting of opportunity or SD. Basically a 405gr load even at a modest 1,500-1,600 fps will give me a lever action speed Casull+ with negligible recoil!!!

[Wambli Ska]

Question still stands. I'd wager 45-60 accumulated any number of large critters in it's day so why try to make a magnum out of something that is not.

Oh it did and Winchester used to sell the gun as a Western dangerous game rifle/cartridge. I’m just so close to a 405 load that I’m kind’a curious if I can make it work. I think I’d be cool to have a short range hammer of Thor in a true saddle gun.

I suspect your 76 has a weight advantage over my Marlin 1895 CB but I can tell you hammer of Thor load in mine are anything but pleasant! I've tried 500gr cast and they loosen filling!! My business loads in that rifle are Hornady 350gr RNSP's and while not mild by any stretch, they are very manageable. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot any game with it.
Not saying you shouldn't try, just can't see any advantage to doing so in that beautiful rifle of yours.

I agree with you. I’m not looking for magnum Marlin only loads. Only thinking of going up 55gr and hope to maintain current 1,500+ speeds, and I think JSP will give me an advantage with lower bore resistance than lead and zero leading of the bore, not even looking for expansion just extra penetration. Again specifically short range Hammer of Thor. 350s are relatively mild loads as shotgunshooter can attest to.

[Bigslug]

So that’s kind’a where my thinking is. Not looking for flat trajectory since this is an offhand shooting of opportunity or SD. Basically a 405gr load even at a modest 1,500-1,600 fps will give me a lever action speed Casull+ with negligible recoil!!!

YMMV, but we've found the 20" 1895 Marlin to transition from "This is a lot of fun!" to "This stings more than a little" at around that speed.

The gun will tell you when it's time to stop.

[Bigslug]

So that’s kind’a where my thinking is. Not looking for flat trajectory since this is an offhand shooting of opportunity or SD. Basically a 405gr load even at a modest 1,500-1,600 fps will give me a lever action speed Casull+ with negligible recoil!!!

YMMV, but we've found the 20" 1895 Marlin to transition from "This is a lot of fun!" to "This stings more than a little" at around that speed. You're basically a magnum 12 gauge at that point.

The gun will tell you when it's time to stop.

[Justsomedude]

I've never heard of the 405JSP.

[Wambli Ska]

I've never heard of the 405JSP.

Not a cartridge. I’m referring to a 405 gr Jacketed Soft Point bullet I’d like to try.

[Justsomedude]

Ah, duh. That's what I get for breezing through a thread at 3am

[Big Al1]

I've been thinking on this one! Your biggest issue will be correct seating depth and a GOOD crimp!! I've tried putting a 405 cast in a .45-60 case and the case mouth was up around the ogive!

[Wambli Ska]

I've been thinking on this one! Your biggest issue will be correct seating depth and a GOOD crimp!! I've tried putting a 405 cast in a .45-60 case and the case mouth was up around the ogive!

Hummm, that could be an issue if the bullets get pushed in during recoil. I might have to make a few dummies. Thanks for weighing in. Was waiting for you

[Elk Creek]

I was looking at the Speer 400 grain 458 bullet it has 2 canelures
, looks like the front band may be ok for a 45-60…

[sakodude]

Or, buy a cannelure tool and put it where you want it.

[sakodude]

Don't think I ever noticed those 400gr Speer before. Might have to try those myself.