Philosophy and the 1911 Build

[breamfisher]

They made it a .45 cause they didn’t make a .46, by Gawd

Read my signature.

[Bigslug]

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Oh yeah. . .forgot the left side pic.

The scallop cutout on the left side grip panel to help you reach the mag catch is a nice addition. There's a little more reach to a 1911's button than there is on a Gen 5 Glock with the button that extends backwards. A little harder to reach both it and the slide stop, but also a little harder to actuate on them accidentally. Call that one a wash.

I ordered the grips for, and currently plan to keep, the ambidextrous thumb safety. . .mainly for the reason that most of this thing's contemporary counterparts have them and I occasionally instruct on weak-hand draws and the like. That said, I'm not left handed, have no plans of being left handed, and like the mechanical simplicity and sturdiness of a one-piece unit that doesn't meet in the middle at a flimsy dovetail joint. Gonna need to have a few sleeps on that one. . .

[Zee]

I like the 1911 as a shooting handgun. For fighting…….we have evolved.
Years ago and a few forums ago, I wrote a long diatribe on my evolution regarding handguns, sacred cows, and my personal transformation.
I ain’t gonna attempt to recreate that viewpoint. I’ll sum it up with a phrase I used then and still fits today. Quoted from a friend in a military unit that begins with “D”.
“We use 1911s for comps and Dog & Pony shows. We go to war with Glocks.”
I concur. Nuff said.

[Zee]

I used to have many 1911s. I think I’m down to 4 1911 pattern handguns and one custom 2011 pattern.

[Zee]

I like shooting them. I won’t carry one for defense.

[Bigslug]

I like the 1911 as a shooting handgun. For fighting…….we have evolved.
Years ago and a few forums ago, I wrote a long diatribe on my evolution regarding handguns, sacred cows, and my personal transformation.
I ain’t gonna attempt to recreate that viewpoint. I’ll sum it up with a phrase I used then and still fits today. Quoted from a friend in a military unit that begins with “D”.
“We use 1911s for comps and Dog & Pony shows. We go to war with Glocks.”
I concur. Nuff said.

I'm MOSTLY on board with that. As this is my "philosophy" thread, I can say I differ only a little bit. And that would be thusly:

I've come to regard the four types of centerfire combat handguns as:

1. 1911's
2. Glocks
3. Revolvers - predominantly the DA type. Granted, I'm pretty retro, but even I'll state that we're past the 1880's.
4. Stuff that probably isn't worth my time.

As I see it, there are two real problems with the 1911:

The first problem is that it is a product of its time, when people were more mechanically inclined when it came to diagnosing and fixing stuff - or just giving it basic daily maintenance. If you have a problem with a 1911, there's a higher chance you need to understand how the pistol runs in order to tweak it into functionality. If you have a problem with a Glock, you swap out parts until the problem goes away, and that's where the world has gone. The Glock is a little more digital; the 1911 is a little more analog.

The second problem is 1911 is somewhat a victim of its own success. People feel the need to mess with it, seeking some kind of blending of combat tool and race gun, when they really just need to leave the combat gun alone. I would say that inside of that format, it's pretty bomb- and/or idiot-proof. As I like to joke, the First Commandment should be changed to "Thou Shalt Not Eff with JMB's Internals!" I've deliberately sought out and had the opportunity to tinker with a lot of the original, authentic tools of the WW1 era - Mausers, Enfields (Lee and M1917), Maxim/Vickers, and the period wheelguns from Webley, Colt, and S&W, and of course, the 1911. There was some serious, "We Ain't Screwin' Around" metal work going on back then, and you can't always judge those actual weapons of war by their modern re-interpretations.

There's also a third problem within the second problem: The world is full of folks who fancy themselves worthy of folded steel, differentially heat-treated samurai swords and hand-built Italian sports cars; what they really NEED are $10 Tramontina machetes that you can rust without regret and Toyota Land Cruisers that will run on hangover pee. Those people have shown me things (. . .HORRIBLE things! ), and the Glock was tailor-made for them. And frankly, if you master the basic fundamentals of shooting them (which the above folks are unwilling to do), the Glock is in any respect 95% as capable for 50% (or less) of the price.

For DAMN sure, if I have to work on 400 copies of anything to keep 400 people in the fight on a daily basis, I want those 400 copies to be Glocks.

We're now in a world where grown-ass men and women have no idea how to open and clear revolvers, and pump-action shotguns often get stared at like they're technology dropped off an alien spacecraft. This particular 1911 build lets me visit the pre-microchip world where that wasn't the case, while still being compatible with current tech and teaching. It's an odd therapy project, I'll admit, but I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun with it.

[CPJ 2.0]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

[jbp-ohio]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

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[CPJ 2.0]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

200w.gif

I’m all for supporting those who are born “different.”
Everyone is welcome. Even the deformed.

[Bigslug]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

We actually do teach just that. More of a duty holster thing than a CCW holster thing, but the double retention holsters CAN be run wrong-handed without too much gymnastics. A weak hand draw is going to involve some re-gripping which will provide options for taking a safety off - the fully ambi versions are the most dumbed-down way to do that, but certainly not the only way.

The pro-Glock "truth" here is that you want things dumbed down when running under stress, and it's pretty hard to dumb a semi-auto pistol down any further. With the Gen 5's the only non-ambi control on it is the mag catch, and you have 16-18 chances to deal with your problem before that's even an issue.

As to ambi safeties on 1911's. . .there's two major styles - both of them join together in the middle at a dovetail joint. On the more common version, the right side has a paddle covered by the grip panel to keep the right side from falling out in the event the dovetail gets loose. The BETTER version gets rid of that paddle in favor of a longer hammer pin with a T-slot tip that slides into a groove on the right side safety lever. A little sturdier, and it appeals to me because you don't have to remove the grips to detail strip the gun. Sooooo. . .I might do that. . .or I might go non-amibi. . .or I might do nothing. It'll probably be a while before I detail strip this beast's frame again - will revisit it then. Maybe.

[CPJ 2.0]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

We actually do teach just that. More of a duty holster thing than a CCW holster thing, but the double retention holsters CAN be run wrong-handed without too much gymnastics. A weak hand draw is going to involve some re-gripping which will provide options for taking a safety off - the fully ambi versions are the most dumbed-down way to do that, but certainly not the only way.

The pro-Glock "truth" here is that you want things dumbed down when running under stress, and it's pretty hard to dumb a semi-auto pistol down any further. With the Gen 5's the only non-ambi control on it is the mag catch, and you have 16-18 chances to deal with your problem before that's even an issue.

As to ambi safeties on 1911's. . .there's two major styles - both of them join together in the middle at a dovetail joint. On the more common version, the right side has a paddle covered by the grip panel to keep the right side from falling out in the event the dovetail gets loose. The BETTER version gets rid of that paddle in favor of a longer hammer pin with a T-slot tip that slides into a groove on the right side safety lever. A little sturdier, and it appeals to me because you don't have to remove the grips to detail strip the gun. Sooooo. . .I might do that. . .or I might go non-amibi. . .or I might do nothing. It'll probably be a while before I detail strip this beast's frame again - will revisit it then. Maybe.

I’m old, fat, weak, and slow.
I’ve still got $20 that says you ain’t drawing a gun wrong handed from a retention holster before I bonk your noggin.
Not saying it’s not worth training for, but, the ambi safety thing…if you’re going through the gymnastics, it’s not a stretch to move your thumb around. I’d prefer the less snaggy approach to a normal person safety.
But, unless you are in a small town where the stars at night, are big and bright, you ain’t packing a 1911 as a duty gun.
“I packs the Lords caliber, Hoss”

[Bigslug]

But, unless you are in a small town where the stars at night, are big and bright, you ain’t packing a 1911 as a duty gun.
“I packs the Lords caliber, Hoss”

Pretty much. Deliberately playing a different mindset here, mainly for the sake of being cranky.

I don't regard extra ammo capacity as a bad thing, but I'm super-duper way not hung up on it either. The operating theory behind these 2011-ish platforms is ergonomics of the 1911 with a B.L.O.B. (Butt Load Of Bullets). My take is those good 1911 ergonomics are largely out the window with the fat grip for the double stack mags. If you're going in for the ergonomics, go all in. The Statement of the Build is that we're not planning to spend all day fighting; we're planning to win quickly. And it is permissible to carry reloads, last I checked.

That I've also seen one of the polymer lower grip modules and one of the aluminum frame variants fail catastrophically poured a little extra gas on this fire of mischief. "Sorry Charlie - the old poop works!"

[Gila]

Ambi safety’s are silly unless you are dumb handed.

“But, if my right arm is broke I can reach around to my 3:00 and and draw with my left hand and operate the safety!”

We actually do teach just that. More of a duty holster thing than a CCW holster thing, but the double retention holsters CAN be run wrong-handed without too much gymnastics. A weak hand draw is going to involve some re-gripping which will provide options for taking a safety off - the fully ambi versions are the most dumbed-down way to do that, but certainly not the only way.

The pro-Glock "truth" here is that you want things dumbed down when running under stress, and it's pretty hard to dumb a semi-auto pistol down any further. With the Gen 5's the only non-ambi control on it is the mag catch, and you have 16-18 chances to deal with your problem before that's even an issue.

As to ambi safeties on 1911's. . .there's two major styles - both of them join together in the middle at a dovetail joint. On the more common version, the right side has a paddle covered by the grip panel to keep the right side from falling out in the event the dovetail gets loose. The BETTER version gets rid of that paddle in favor of a longer hammer pin with a T-slot tip that slides into a groove on the right side safety lever. A little sturdier, and it appeals to me because you don't have to remove the grips to detail strip the gun. Sooooo. . .I might do that. . .or I might go non-amibi. . .or I might do nothing. It'll probably be a while before I detail strip this beast's frame again - will revisit it then. Maybe.

I’m old, fat, weak, and slow.
I’ve still got $20 that says you ain’t drawing a gun wrong handed from a retention holster before I bonk your noggin.
Not saying it’s not worth training for, but, the ambi safety thing…if you’re going through the gymnastics, it’s not a stretch to move your thumb around. I’d prefer the less snaggy approach to a normal person safety.
But, unless you are in a small town where the stars at night, are big and bright, you ain’t packing a 1911 as a duty gun.
“I packs the Lords caliber, Hoss”

Sort of like a red dot against iron sights...

[CPJ 2.0]

We actually do teach just that. More of a duty holster thing than a CCW holster thing, but the double retention holsters CAN be run wrong-handed without too much gymnastics. A weak hand draw is going to involve some re-gripping which will provide options for taking a safety off - the fully ambi versions are the most dumbed-down way to do that, but certainly not the only way.

The pro-Glock "truth" here is that you want things dumbed down when running under stress, and it's pretty hard to dumb a semi-auto pistol down any further. With the Gen 5's the only non-ambi control on it is the mag catch, and you have 16-18 chances to deal with your problem before that's even an issue.

As to ambi safeties on 1911's. . .there's two major styles - both of them join together in the middle at a dovetail joint. On the more common version, the right side has a paddle covered by the grip panel to keep the right side from falling out in the event the dovetail gets loose. The BETTER version gets rid of that paddle in favor of a longer hammer pin with a T-slot tip that slides into a groove on the right side safety lever. A little sturdier, and it appeals to me because you don't have to remove the grips to detail strip the gun. Sooooo. . .I might do that. . .or I might go non-amibi. . .or I might do nothing. It'll probably be a while before I detail strip this beast's frame again - will revisit it then. Maybe.

I’m old, fat, weak, and slow.
I’ve still got $20 that says you ain’t drawing a gun wrong handed from a retention holster before I bonk your noggin.
Not saying it’s not worth training for, but, the ambi safety thing…if you’re going through the gymnastics, it’s not a stretch to move your thumb around. I’d prefer the less snaggy approach to a normal person safety.
But, unless you are in a small town where the stars at night, are big and bright, you ain’t packing a 1911 as a duty gun.
“I packs the Lords caliber, Hoss”

Sort of like a red dot against iron sights...

How so?

[Japhy]

Slug you covered a lot of ground. Much of what i would agree with. The thin grip and flat mainspring housing have been problematic for me. I also note no red blob front sight. Only other addition would be an easier to activate magazine release. So why not put all that down and send your critique to Springfield? Maybe next round they will do better. 1911 isnt a Glock copy i hope it stays that way.

[Bigslug]

Gun came with a tritium front dot with a white outline. I immediately colored in the white outline with a black Sharpie. Colored outlines "halo" annoyingly on me, and if it's really a problem to see, it's going to get back-lit by the Streamlight.

Not really a fan of bigger mag buttons - you tend to find yourself without a magazine, especially with close-to-body CCW. Mindset here is solving the problem in three, maybe five, and certainly not ten. At any rate, the reload isn't the emphasis.

I'd be happy if Springfield - and everyone else - would just get away from the long triggers.

[GrapeApe]

<snip>

I'd be happy if Springfield - and everyone else - would just get away from the long triggers and flat MSHs.

FIFY

[Japhy]

Slug, I actually like your project.

[CPJ 2.0]

I’m old, fat, weak, and slow.
I’ve still got $20 that says you ain’t drawing a gun wrong handed from a retention holster before I bonk your noggin.
Not saying it’s not worth training for, but, the ambi safety thing…if you’re going through the gymnastics, it’s not a stretch to move your thumb around. I’d prefer the less snaggy approach to a normal person safety.
But, unless you are in a small town where the stars at night, are big and bright, you ain’t packing a 1911 as a duty gun.
“I packs the Lords caliber, Hoss”

Sort of like a red dot against iron sights...

How so?

Not sure if you know how these forum discussions work…

[Japhy]

So get to the bottom line
What could Springfield sell a rig as described for? With a less expensive RDS?

Im thinking something like a Ronin with a trigger job short,and about 3.5lbs, RDS, sans fiber optic ft sight, G10 grips and in either .45ACP or 9mm.

[Bigslug]

So get to the bottom line
What could Springfield sell a rig as described for? With a less expensive RDS?

Im thinking something like a Ronin with a trigger job short,and about 3.5lbs, RDS, sans fiber optic ft sight, G10 grips and in either .45ACP or 9mm.

Other than the dot, the only price-altering add-ons would be the one-piece MSH/Mag guide and the plate to mount the optic-of-choice on. It's already got G10 grips out of the box (just not flat bottoms to match the mag guide); my choice of trigger is simply short in place of long; I can probably get the trigger down to 4.5# simply by adjusting the left two leaves of the sear spring (not sure I'll bother - it's not a NRA Bullseye gun).

With the unitized MSH and optic plate, it's probably creeping up around a $1400 MSRP specimen.

[Japhy]

Thats all reasonable. Just looked that the current SA 1911 offerings. Many are available with optic mounting.

[Bigslug]

OK. . .Shooting for group at 25 yards. . .

The operating concept here is "a man's got to know his limitations" when it comes to shooting off a sandbag sitting on top of a step ladder from a double kneeling position.

Whenever I'm testing or zeroing and I KNOW there's going to be some human error involved, I compensate for that error by simply putting up a bigger sample size - in this case 30 rounds - to get a better notion of what the gun WANTS to do, and might be capable of if it didn't have the broken down meat sack pulling the trigger:

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I think the cluster of rounds at 1:00 is probably close to the true measure of the gun, as it contains roughly half of the 30 rounds fired. While technically the Aimpoint's dot should only cover about 5/8" of an inch at this distance, imperfect eyeballs make it seem to cover most of my colored-in aiming black. Given that I've already killed two half-gallon jugs at a hundred yards with this thing without too much effort, it's probably not unreasonable to assume a 4-5 MOA pistol. Suffice to say, it's better than I'll ever be.

[Japhy]

I would call it good! And if you’re are nailing jugs @100 very good! The last 20% improvement of anything takes at least 80% of the effort and an even larger share of the money.

Don’t know how long you have been shooting with a RDS? What I have noticed is that they make me very aware of all my errors. That has made a big difference in my offhand shooting withe either the dot or irons.

[DanielChamberlain]

I could live with 10 rounds.