ICE dumps the SigP320/M18

[GrapeApe]

This guy shows the Homeland Security memo saying the 320 is no longer authorized and they're to be replaced with Glock 19 MOS
https://youtu.be/UPs9LEVSU2U?si=7XySXni7I1UsJL59

He also has a 45 minute video going through an FBI report concerning their investigation of a Michigan State Police M18 the supposedly fired while in a holster and not being touched
https://youtu.be/gtThjUiSPO4?si=ah3RO0ZxaOz6u-mf

[Zee]

Good for them! Seeing as they finally have to work for a living instead of just gathering a paycheck as they have been since inception. They might need a gun that works too. Ha!
And that’s not a political statement. It’s actually just true.

[Bigslug]

I'm fairly certain at this point that Sig's CEO has pictures of key Pentagon officials having sex with goats or hanging out at Epstein Island.

[Admin]

I just can't figure out why SIG let it get this far. Fix the damn problem, and stop blaming the victims

[CPJ 2.0]

All of this is fake news! How do I know? It’s because SIG told me like four months ago that it ends today! So it has to have ended. Because they said so. Just ask them!

[GrapeApe]

All of this is fake news! How do I know? It’s because SIG told me like four months ago that it ends today! So it has to have ended. Because they said so. Just ask them!

Which may be why Sig declined the opportunity to participate in the FBI's investigation, per the 45 minute video

[CPJ 2.0]

Yeah, you’d think they would WANT a representative to be onsite. Sure, if it was some internet yahoo doing testing, I can see blowing it off.

But the F B friggin I? As in the federal government? As in your LARGEST EFFING CUSTOMER?


I think they are redefining “going down with the ship”

[Justsomedude]

I still don't understand how the safety detent gets depressed enough to allow the striker to hit the back of the primer. I watched a video where a guy got it to happen by mixing and matching parts from different generation guns from a 10 to 9mm, but I doubt cops are doing that (or the people having AD's.)

Also* not saying it's not happening. I just dont understand how.

[CPJ 2.0]

The fact that they doubled, tripled, quadrupled down on “it ends today” , and it’s “not our fault you’re retarded and had a round go off” is AMAZING.


Because you CAN NOT AND WILL NOT BEAT THE INTERNET.

[jkp]

Moving to Glock might have more to do with aligning supply chains under Homeland Security than the discharge issue.

[CPJ 2.0]

Moving to Glock might have more to do with aligning supply chains under Homeland Security than the discharge issue.

If it wasn’t an immediate thing, sure.

But they’ve been given a short timeline. When does the government move fast?

[GrapeApe]

I still don't understand how the safety detent gets depressed enough to allow the striker to hit the back of the primer. I watched a video where a guy got it to happen by mixing and matching parts from different generation guns from a 10 to 9mm, but I doubt cops are doing that (or the people having AD's.)

Also* not saying it's not happening. I just dont understand how.

One "leg" of the spring gets loose from its "captive" spot. According to the FBI report in the 45 minute video.
The FBI report even has pictures showing some of the "problem parts" in that 32 page report, that the video goes through, pretty much, line by line.

The MSP gun was taken off the copper's duty belt, still in the holster, and placed directly into an evidence bag and shipped to the FBI (All per the FBI report). The feds X-rayed it, in received condition, before they even removed it from the holster.

It was an Alien Gear level 3 retention holster, and a VP from Alien Gear showed up, in case the holster was the problem. Guess that smaller company can spare a person to send to the FBI while their holster, and the pistol it was holding, are being safety checked. Too bad Sig seemed to be to understaffed, busy or apathetic to do the same.

[GrapeApe]

They might need a gun that works too. Ha!

Hey the M18 "works", The problem is it works a little too well.
Not only does it make "loud obnoxious noises" when you tell it too by pulling the trigger, Sometimes, it apparently gets bored and decides to do it all by itself

[Bigslug]

I spent a lot of time this week looking at various animations and comment videos - one of them containing quite a number of transcripts from various lawsuits. Five things that I'm not particularly comfortable with:

1. There may be a tendency to cheap foreign MIM parts from numerous sources that vary greatly in both durability and tolerances. Either stuff that's supposed to mate together and hold are wearing and failing to do so, or those same parts are supposed to nominally have "X" amount of engagement are not getting it. Basically, the binders that are used to hold the metal filings in their molded shape until they get baked burn off in the oven can result in more or less shrinkage. If you assume you're going to get dimension X, but get dimension Y, there's a problem.

2. The two-legged torsion spring that puts downward pressure on the firing pin safety isn't doing its job. Whether that's a failing of the spring or the parts it engages or is supposed to engage on is the next question. A lot of firing pin blocks on other guns are powered by simple, direct-pressure coil springs and we don't hear about them going BANG! randomly.

3. Some (?) or most (?) of the guns out there now have a "secondary sear notch". It's not yet entirely clear to me which ones have it and which ones don't, because early images I have of the parts dating from before the "goes-off-in-your-holster-era" have it, and more recent discussions speak of its more recent addition. Whatever. The design feature is analogous to the half-cock notch on a hammer-fired gun; if for some reason the striker falls of the primary notch without the trigger being pulled, it gets blocked by the secondary. The successful function of the secondary is going to depend on its ability to pivot into the path of the hammer, or in this case, striker. If you have the tolerance or wear problems covered above in #1, possibly combined with what I'm about to mention in #4, scary stuff can happen.

4. When you pull the trigger on even a brand new P320, the sear slides downward along the face of a tab on the striker until the two separate. The slop between the slide and frame is such that you can see the entire rear of the slide dip downward when this happens - maybe by as much 1/64th to 1/32 of an inch. I see that slop as striker/sear engagement that can possibly change when the upper and lower halves of the gun get flexed. See wear and tolerance problems above.

5. With a round chambered and the gun at rest, with a P320 you're walking around with a striker that's in the cocked and ready to fire position. In contrast, a Glock's striker is un-tensioned until you take up the first stage of the trigger. The Sig system wouldn't be a problem if the above safeties were functioning as designed. Clearly, they are not.

The most recent video from 2 weeks ago in Ceres, CA is pretty damning: https://hoodline.com/2025/07/ceres-poli ... gh-school/ From what I understand, a pretty major brand of retention duty holster. You shouldn't get a hole in your leg by taking off your backpack.

Up to the most recent wave in this kerfuffle, Sig has been maintaining that something has to be pulling the trigger - - keys or lanyards getting into the holsters; that kind of thing. I don't think that will continue to fly

[breamfisher]

Sig potentially having poor MIM parts isn't surprising.

Hilton Yam of 10-8 Performance is NOT a Sig fan for 1911s and other modern duty guns because of the quality of their MIM parts. He made a statement to the effect of "I know at the price point these firearms come in at, you will have MIM. But the fact that competitors with similar or less expensive products have better, more consistent triggers says something about Sig's MIM techniques."

[Bigslug]

Yeah. . .I dunno. . .

The animations of the various safety mechanisms doing their thing indicate to me that the basic design may be pretty sound - minus the torsion spring on the F.P. safety and the excessive slop on the slide/frame rails that allows the slide to dip as the trigger is pulled.

Minor changes to those items, plus not making the fire control parts out of cheese, might be all that's needed to cure the thing. A real challenge there is that you can't widen the frame rails because that's part of the serialized fire control unit (I regarded that notion as stupid from day one), and doing a recall replacement of every single slide with one possessing narrower rails would be a logistical nightmare.

Worthy of note is that the more recently introduced P365, which is supposed to be the "baby brother" to the P320 is using a much more conventional FPS. This has me thinking that the P320 got ram-rodded through military acceptance before the salmonella was fully baked out of its cookie dough, but once you lock something in as a "mil-spec", making changes takes almost a literal act of congress. There are real problems with admitting fault at that point, especially if you start making major changes to a civilian equivalent.

The P320's military adoption sequence is one of the more scandalous things I've ever seen, and the ICE memo I read yesterday is packing a similar amount of dirty laundry (suggesting Sig has photos of some of THOSE officials also having sex with goats or hanging out at Epstein Island).

On the one hand, I hate to see Rome burn. On the other, the real Rome burned because of similar corruption and mismanagement, and it pretty much served them right.

[Bigslug]

Sig potentially having poor MIM parts isn't surprising.

Hilton Yam of 10-8 Performance is NOT a Sig fan for 1911s and other modern duty guns because of the quality of their MIM parts. He made a statement to the effect of "I know at the price point these firearms come in at, you will have MIM. But the fact that competitors with similar or less expensive products have better, more consistent triggers says something about Sig's MIM techniques."

Unfortunately, most of the customers see a gun with a price tag. A 1911 with MIM guts looks exactly like a 1911 with forged and milled guts. More to the point, a 1911 with crap MIM guts looks exactly like a 1911 with good MIM guts. A Sig logo looks like a Sig logo - they put it on a Swiss-made P210; if they put it on a P320, it HAS to be good, right?

As one who is intimately familiar with Remington 870's, it was rather stomach-turning to watch the gradual cheapening of the Express, Wingmaster, Tactical and assorted civilian-market lines, while at the same time they all but admitted these were cheap pieces of crap by the fact that the Police versions of the gun were still made with the old style parts, methods, and upgrades. At the point one gun gets a 22" magazine spring because it works better, and the rest keep a 16" magazine spring because it's cheaper, you know the thinking at the top is not where it should be.

Which is doubly ironic when you consider that the 870 and 700 started out as the cheaper price point options that drove the old-school milled Winchester Model 12 and Model 70 to extinction. They started cheap and insisted on going cheaper. . .while keeping the price the same, or raising it.

All I can figure is that they were counting on those of us born in the 1950's, '60's, and '70's telling our juniors that "It's an 870. It's good. Buy one." That lasted for about one generation of shooters, and then they went bankrupt.

Sig has been giving me a distinctly Remington vibe.

[Elk Creek]

There has been a race to the bottom for the last 20 years, and most buyers just don’t care…..

[breamfisher]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMbE3iqRMfb ... dmbjdhag==

USAF has issued a full pause on M18 usage. An Airman died today.

[shotgunshooter3]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMbE3iqRMfb ... dmbjdhag==

USAF has issued a full pause on M18 usage. An Airman died today.

Knowing the DoD... they'll just use M17's instead.

(Turns out they're actually using the M4 instead)

[breamfisher]

https://www.wearethemighty.com/military ... ps-report/

Turns out an Marine had a pistol go off in a holster in 2023 or before.

[GrapeApe]

From what I can find online, a sergeant removed his holster from his belt and placed it on a table. The pistol fired, while still in the hoster and the bullet hit the sergeant in the chest.

[breamfisher]

I saw that. Obviously he pointed the gun where it shouldn't. But, the danged thing shouldn't have gone off, if that's what happened.

[Bigslug]

Sounds like the USAF incident involved a Safariland holster on their QLS system - basically a great big Fas-Tex buckle that lets you rapidly disconnect your holster from its duty belt or thigh-rig platform. It's a cheap and really handy option if you have one (expensive) holster that needs to go from a more formal duty uniform to the green BDU's of a SWAT team, or run a Glock holster one day and a 1911 the next.

The guns are pretty well clamshelled up inside those holsters. It's pretty common practice to move them around on QLS platforms with loaded guns in them and nobody thinks anything of it. Muzzle discipline SHOULDN'T end just because a piece is holstered up, but frankly it does. . .all the time. When you get right down to it, any time you sit across a table from a cop wearing a thigh-rig, his pistol is . .ideally situated to knee-cap you.

. . .and we seem to have a pistol in these holsters with less trustworthy fail-safes than the half-cock notch on hand-fitted British army flintlocks from the 1750's.

CAD-CAM and MIM boys - they're the FUTURE!

[breamfisher]

Yeah, I was thinking... you put your pistol in a desk drawer and your desk is facing another desk.... people walking around that area are walking in front of loaded pistol puzzles, regularly.