Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
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JunkCollector
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Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Some history of what it does doesn't do or seem like so far.
It will load feed and eject unfired rounds perfectly.
A loaded round slides right in the chamber with no resistance or binding....doesn't feel peened from dry firing
The ejectors seem fine.
The Firing pin strikes are very strong.
Perhaps too much so ?
A fired case showing the backside of the rim and firing pin strike not sure what the backside cause is ?
It will load feed and eject unfired rounds perfectly.
A loaded round slides right in the chamber with no resistance or binding....doesn't feel peened from dry firing
The ejectors seem fine.
The Firing pin strikes are very strong.
Perhaps too much so ?
A fired case showing the backside of the rim and firing pin strike not sure what the backside cause is ?
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
A wag would be that the chamber is slightly oblong, or the chamber has a spot under where the firing pin would hit the empty chamber from dry firing? Just a guess
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Armorer bible stuff here:
Cycle of operations:
1. Feed. Once it's clear of the magazine apparatus, you can generally say a round has "fed".
2. Chamber. If the round makes it in to the point of allowing correct headspacing, you're there.
3. Lock. Is the gun fully in battery. NOTE: "Lock" may not accurately apply to blowback actions, so look to ability to fully chamber.
4. Fire. Successful ignition and departure of the projectile.
5. Unlock. Whatever's keeping the bolt or slide closed is undone.
6. Extract. Getting the empty clear of the barrel, NOT necessarily getting it clear of the gun.
7. Eject. The fired case is now in the wind.
8. Cock. Whatever mechanism responsible for hitting the primer gets reset.
Look at that cycle closely and consider carefully where your gun is failing. If your problem isn't obviously completely within one of those stages, it'll be in the one before or after. That'll tell you what parts need to be cleaned, adjusted, or replaced.
If you're leaving empties in the chamber, consider that you've got to grab the case hard enough to pull it out against any resistance of fouling or case deformity. Could be weak extractor springs, deformed or broken extractor, rough or dirty chamber, or simply ammo that's incompatible with the gun.
Different rounds are easiest to check first. Look at the empties and consider what's causing any damage of "that ain't right".
Cycle of operations:
1. Feed. Once it's clear of the magazine apparatus, you can generally say a round has "fed".
2. Chamber. If the round makes it in to the point of allowing correct headspacing, you're there.
3. Lock. Is the gun fully in battery. NOTE: "Lock" may not accurately apply to blowback actions, so look to ability to fully chamber.
4. Fire. Successful ignition and departure of the projectile.
5. Unlock. Whatever's keeping the bolt or slide closed is undone.
6. Extract. Getting the empty clear of the barrel, NOT necessarily getting it clear of the gun.
7. Eject. The fired case is now in the wind.
8. Cock. Whatever mechanism responsible for hitting the primer gets reset.
Look at that cycle closely and consider carefully where your gun is failing. If your problem isn't obviously completely within one of those stages, it'll be in the one before or after. That'll tell you what parts need to be cleaned, adjusted, or replaced.
If you're leaving empties in the chamber, consider that you've got to grab the case hard enough to pull it out against any resistance of fouling or case deformity. Could be weak extractor springs, deformed or broken extractor, rough or dirty chamber, or simply ammo that's incompatible with the gun.
Different rounds are easiest to check first. Look at the empties and consider what's causing any damage of "that ain't right".
WWJMBD?
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
I'm pretty sure the chamber's been peened from dry firing.
This mark, aligned with the firing pin strike on the rim, seals the deal for me
This mark, aligned with the firing pin strike on the rim, seals the deal for me
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
What position is the ejector in relation to the firing pin.
Is the tip of the firing pin broken? Or ejector edge?
Since its a lever gun there could be quite a lot of force applied to the ejector. Is the lever at all difficult to open? Or close?
Could hand load a round to see if it easily chambers or sticks at the last. If so eject it and look at the case then. Should tell you if its a firing pin making the dent.
The firing pin is not hitting all the way to the edge of the rum so my vote is a broken firing pin at the striking edge
Is the tip of the firing pin broken? Or ejector edge?
Since its a lever gun there could be quite a lot of force applied to the ejector. Is the lever at all difficult to open? Or close?
Could hand load a round to see if it easily chambers or sticks at the last. If so eject it and look at the case then. Should tell you if its a firing pin making the dent.
The firing pin is not hitting all the way to the edge of the rum so my vote is a broken firing pin at the striking edge
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
GA probably right. Let's run it down:
Condition of tip of firing pin?
Feel for roundness at the back of the chamber with some kind of pokey? Removal of the barrel to gently deburr the hypothetically kneaded metal may be a foregone conclusion, but we'd like to determine the problem before taking that step if possible.
Diameter of brass body before and after firing it? Consistency of diameter - if the firing pin strike is 12:00 and directly across is 6:00, what's the diameter from 3:00 to 9:00? Is the brass swelling symmetrically?
Interesting that the exterior is so clean, and we've got this likely evidence of "death by dry fire". My Winchester 63 came home with a broken off firing pin tip (long, slender, tapered thing), undoubtedly due to no last-shot hold open to indicate you're done. No real fix in that system other than to count rounds. Since your rifle has a sexy short-throw action, it's likely it got not only dry fire at the end of a magazine, but also a lot of "playing around" snaps. THEN you've got the possibility of "I don't want to put this thing away with the springs cocked - CLICK!"
A bit outside my wheelhouse, but thinking in terms of firing pin travel:
There's probably an oblong hole in the firing pin and a cross pin retaining it in the bolt. Is the pin bent or the end of that hole which serves as a stop surface "wallered out"? Either of those would allow excessive forward travel.
OR. . . is the back of the chamber the designed-in stop surface?
Paths to prevention likely contained in the answers.
Condition of tip of firing pin?
Feel for roundness at the back of the chamber with some kind of pokey? Removal of the barrel to gently deburr the hypothetically kneaded metal may be a foregone conclusion, but we'd like to determine the problem before taking that step if possible.
Diameter of brass body before and after firing it? Consistency of diameter - if the firing pin strike is 12:00 and directly across is 6:00, what's the diameter from 3:00 to 9:00? Is the brass swelling symmetrically?
Interesting that the exterior is so clean, and we've got this likely evidence of "death by dry fire". My Winchester 63 came home with a broken off firing pin tip (long, slender, tapered thing), undoubtedly due to no last-shot hold open to indicate you're done. No real fix in that system other than to count rounds. Since your rifle has a sexy short-throw action, it's likely it got not only dry fire at the end of a magazine, but also a lot of "playing around" snaps. THEN you've got the possibility of "I don't want to put this thing away with the springs cocked - CLICK!"
A bit outside my wheelhouse, but thinking in terms of firing pin travel:
There's probably an oblong hole in the firing pin and a cross pin retaining it in the bolt. Is the pin bent or the end of that hole which serves as a stop surface "wallered out"? Either of those would allow excessive forward travel.
OR. . . is the back of the chamber the designed-in stop surface?
Paths to prevention likely contained in the answers.
WWJMBD?
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
I believe we should stand on Ceremony. . . while our friends handcuff the sanctimonious little prick and take him away.
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JunkCollector
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- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:26 am
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Looks like it's peened just enough!!!!!
Firing pin look good to me.
Firing pin hits 12 o'clock
Ejectors at 3 and 9
Rim diameter does show wider in the 6 to 12 diameter reading by a couple thousandths
Firing pin look good to me.
Firing pin hits 12 o'clock
Ejectors at 3 and 9
Rim diameter does show wider in the 6 to 12 diameter reading by a couple thousandths
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Have another look at the first pic showing the firing pin strike on the brass.
The top is scalloped and does not contact the full rim.
That indeed may have been caused by dry firing.
I looked for a spent 22 brass but didnt find one in my bag. But look at one from another gun you will see a sharp rectangular indent that covers the entire rim. If dry firing it will be the outer edge of the firing pin that takes the damage from striking the face. Could be 2 problems. Firing pin and chamber breach.
The top is scalloped and does not contact the full rim.
That indeed may have been caused by dry firing.
I looked for a spent 22 brass but didnt find one in my bag. But look at one from another gun you will see a sharp rectangular indent that covers the entire rim. If dry firing it will be the outer edge of the firing pin that takes the damage from striking the face. Could be 2 problems. Firing pin and chamber breach.
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Enlarging the first pic of the chamber you can see the peened area at 12:00
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
I would agree, dry firing damage to the chamber and firing pin. The pin doesn’t deform the rim of the case, all the way pout to the rim. The pin should be flat all the way to the top edge. The picture of the chamber seems to show a little deformation.
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Would a chamber reamer clean that up?
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Presto! Chamber swage for 22lr. No cutting all hand tools. But in the end if it’s not effecting accuracy or function who cares if the case is slightly deformed, not like we gonna reload that case.
https://eabco.com/tandemkross-chamberma ... g-22short/
https://eabco.com/tandemkross-chamberma ... g-22short/
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JunkCollector
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Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
It wasn't hanging up at all on unfired rounds.
Figure just enough of a burr inside the chamber to stop extraction on the fired round.
I Took it apart and Im pretty sure I swaged it back.
Figure just enough of a burr inside the chamber to stop extraction on the fired round.
I Took it apart and Im pretty sure I swaged it back.
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Hopefully that fixes it
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)
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JunkCollector
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Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Hopefully
I'll probably find out tomorrow
It seemed just enough to not extract fired cases while cycling right through unfired ones.
I'll probably find out tomorrow
It seemed just enough to not extract fired cases while cycling right through unfired ones.
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JunkCollector
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Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Thanks all
Houston we have ignition..........and extraction.
Actually laughed and did a fist pump after the first couple worked.
Tried some of 5 different brands.... all perfect.
Ka chink ka chink ka chink it went.
Kid liked it.....said it was fun.
Of course I wasn't bright enough to remember to grab a fired one like I had wanted.
Houston we have ignition..........and extraction.
Actually laughed and did a fist pump after the first couple worked.
Tried some of 5 different brands.... all perfect.
Ka chink ka chink ka chink it went.
Kid liked it.....said it was fun.
Of course I wasn't bright enough to remember to grab a fired one like I had wanted.
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Glad you got it fixed
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Excellent news. Glad you found a solution.
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JunkCollector
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Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
I think the donk before me pretty much mainly dried fired this.
I've had it apart and most evidence showed little real shooting
Definitely glad too.
Didn't want to buy parts when it seemed like extractors were fine.
I didn't really suspect the chamber so the help here....helped
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
Great it’s running now
Might check to see if you can find a new firing pin then it would be fully back and ready for years of use.
Might check to see if you can find a new firing pin then it would be fully back and ready for years of use.
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JunkCollector
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- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:26 am
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
I did want to keep an empty to check.
Never hurts to have a spare of those for sure
I'm not sure the Firing pin has anything wrong yet.
My eyes suck though
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
To me, that "ding" on the end of the barrel means the FP has taken some damage.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)
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JunkCollector
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:26 am
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
I did want to check that....still will.
Unfortunately I forgot to take home an empty fired case.
One thing is a firing pin is hardened steel vs the chamber which is a softer steel.
So the chamber will take the damage first.
Right now it's still under review.
I'm leaning towards the firing pin is still intact/ undamaged
Unfortunately I forgot to take home an empty fired case.
One thing is a firing pin is hardened steel vs the chamber which is a softer steel.
So the chamber will take the damage first.
Right now it's still under review.
I'm leaning towards the firing pin is still intact/ undamaged
Re: Help diagnosing the lever 22 problem
If it's not damaged, they sure picked a strange shape to mill the top edge of it.
It still seems to work, so it's not "terminal damage" though
hardened, could also mean "brittle", at least compared to the barrel steel
It still seems to work, so it's not "terminal damage" though
hardened, could also mean "brittle", at least compared to the barrel steel
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)