Pondering the ancient wisdom....

[Zee]

Cartridge

I’ve carried and shot things with a 9mm, .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .40 Sw, 10mm, .45 ACP (typical defensive rounds).
They all “work”. After my experiences, I’ll never carry a .38 Spl intentionally again.
Of the rest, from my results, I’d pick .40 SW first (shootability and performance), 10mm second, 9mm third, .357 Mag fourth, and .45 ACP last.
That is a judgement of both the ability to shoot the gun combined with the performance the round resulted in.
As a disclaimer, I prefer the performance of the .357 over the 9mm but the shootability of both gave the 9mm the edge. The 10mm came second because it’s an auto and easier to shoot than the .357 Mag platform and when handloaded only, can be loaded hot and correctly. If using standard factory, absolutely not.
The .45 ACP gave me the worst terminal performance of all of them.
I know it’s not in vogue. But, the .40SW have consistently given me the best shootability and terminal performance over a wide range of any of the above. I can shoot it fast, accurately, and……..it will keel. (Name the actor reference).

[Wambli Ska]

Yes, you have a training curve. If you aren’t willing to put the time and effort into them, don’t bother. But, if you aren’t willing, my battery lasts more than a year with a quality battery constantly on and if it did dye, I have backup irons.

That’s the summary right there. Won’t give mine up. Still love other guns but I feel under armed when I leave the 48 home for some reason, which is almost never.

[Japhy]

With what I have available the 4in 1911 45 is the best carry choice. Aluminum frame, 8 shot mag. Others full size 1911 9mm, G17 9mm, M&P 9mm. i shoot it the best. Its light with full size grip. Mk I could add a dot but havent.

[GrapeApe]

<snip>.it will keel. (Name the actor reference).

Doug Marcaida - Forged in Fire

[Bigslug]

An interesting take and nearly sound physics. But the kinetic energy = 1/2 mass X (velocity squared). If the bullet is stopped in the target all of the energy is dissipated in the target. If the bullet traverses through the energy dissipated in the target is the entry energy - the exit energy. The momentum is not all absorbed in the target if the bullet passes through. Momentum is the integral of kinetic energy by time. exit energy matters a lot
Im sticking with a 4 1/4 inch Springfield Ronin and 230 gr 45 ACP JHP, factory irons ie no battery failures, no sheared mounting bolts, no gawking high and low to find the dot.

Perhaps a better way to illustrate the "Fallacy of Foot-Pounds":

There is now a sizeable data pool of guys who have been shot with handgun bullets that we stopped by a Kevlar vest, i.e., they received ALL of the kinetic energy that bullet had to offer. The result is that it stings a bit, likely leaves a bruise, and you want to get the guy checked by a doc on general principle, but he's probably still on his feet and able to continue the fight. There's no more energy coming out of the muzzle than is coming backwards in recoil. The only difference is the shooter gets it spread over his entire hand and takes no damage; the recipient gets it focused onto a veritable pin head so it starts penetrating.

In any event, the 9mm, .40, and .45 are all operating with roughly 350 to 450 foot pounds. The 100ft-lb difference between the low and high of those extremes is about that of a major league fastball (guys walk that impact off all the time). The whole enchilada then is about the equivalent of 4-5 major league fastballs - no, I don't want to get hit by that, but it's still a far cry from having a 105mm howitzer blow up in your lap.

So in terms of impact, that energy isn't really doing anything for us other than pushing our bullet through a target to sever blood vessels and nerve wiring. The energy retained by a bullet that passes completely through isn't "wasted" - it's making a second hole from which blood can get out and air can get in. Generally this is just dandy until we raise concerns about where it might end up, which is why the lab geeks ended up with the 18" cap on the "ideal" penetration figures - that's capable of wrecking the most possible vital tissue and is pretty much spent as a lethal implement even if it does exit.

If the .45 hollow point does have an advantage in all of this, it's going to be on frontal shots or skinny targets where its slightly shallower penetration isn't a detriment and it's extra 0.2" of expanded diameter stands a slightly greater chance of nicking something that might leak. . . but we're REALLY splitting hairs there. If you compare the diameters of these expanded bullets to that of the largest blood vessels in the body. . .none of those "hoses" are going to be effective hoses after having that much of their diameter severed by any of our projectile options.

On the flip side, it's DISADVANTAGES when comparing single rounds aren't really all that significant either. Provided you can control it, deliver another with some rapidity, and don't have too many zombies milling around outside your farm house, it's about as good as anything else.

[Japhy]

There are good arguments for all combinations and calibers. In my case compact grips were problematic tried several compacts with my knuckle dragger paws a full size grip was a key factor.

[Bigslug]

There are good arguments for all combinations and calibers. In my case compact grips were problematic tried several compacts with my knuckle dragger paws a full size grip was a key factor.

And you're basically running a Colt Commander, which in Cooper's opinion was about as legit as it gits.

This brings up another angle of why I'd like to see more R&D done on the .45 hollowpoints. . .

There's PLENTY of penetration capability in the .45 ACP, so long as you don't over-expand it. If you drop the bullet weight down to 200 grains, or dial back the charge a little on a 230, it becomes considerably more pleasant to shoot - especially in less-than-Government-Model sized guns. Single stack guns just carry better, to say nothing of fitting the average human hand.

Granted, the 15+ round "stack-and-a-half" narrow grip 9mm's like the Glock 43X/48 and Sig P365 Macro are a pretty forceful counter-argument to this, but still, I think the .45ACP still deserves equal time in the "enhancement lab". A round with 200 grain "target load" level recoil that routinely penetrates to 15"-17" would be an awesome thing.

And while the world has mostly dropped the .40 like a wad of freshly used toilet paper, I'd like to see a similar bullet re-engineer so that it doesn't need to run at its traditional gun-crushing pressures to do its job effectively. Dialing the 180 grain loads from 1000 down to about 850 fps and still remaining in the penetration "happy zone" would keep the recently retired service pistols running a lot longer.

[CPJ 2.0]

No one is dumb enough to spend money in further developing the 45 acp. 9mm guns out number them by a huge margin. People purchase far more nine than 45.

[Japhy]

Initially i bought 200 rnds S&B 230gr jhp ($100 / free shipping) and a larger qty of 230gr fmj from my goto online ammo store. After 200 rnds of fmj i was almost always inside 5 in at 25yds. Good enough. Went through half a box of jhp and didnt see any difference.

[Bigslug]

No one is dumb enough to spend money in further developing the 45 acp. 9mm guns out number them by a huge margin. People purchase far more nine than 45.

Yup. The degree to which the 9mm at least got doctored for controlled expansion is impressive, and that figures. It was the high-profile article in the '80's that needed fixing; the .45 was always perceived as "good enough".

I dunno. . .the .40's and .45's (and .38/.357's) are out there in massive numbers, even if those numbers are fading from front line L.E. The current generation of pansies thinks they need comps on 9mm's in order to shoot fast. Eventually the ammo mfgs are going to need to re-tool their equipment, order new materials to make bullets, etc... There's unlikely to be "agency quantity" demand for the improvements, but since we're not thinking in foot-pounds anymore, the big rounds can have terminal improvements with less recoil, which will make the pansies happy.

I mean, bone heads in the industry thought the .45 GAP, .30 Super Carry, and .21 Sharp were good ideas. This would give those same marketing weenies something to promote that might actually be WORTH promoting.

[Japhy]

Brings back a long held engineering adage:
The final 20% improvement is 80% of total cost
Good enough is good enough

[Varmintmist]

.45 in theory makes a bigger hole. 9mm has higher capacity and makes more holes. Bigger overall hole area, or more chances to miss?

Miss???

9mmmiss.jpg (41.94 KiB) Viewed 370 times

[Freezer]

No mention of the 357 Sig or 327 Federal?

[mitdr774]

.45 in theory makes a bigger hole. 9mm has higher capacity and makes more holes. Bigger overall hole area, or more chances to miss?

Miss???
9mmmiss.jpg

Having never been in a situation where I need to use a handgun in a defensive manner, Im open to the possibility that I may not be shooting my best. Having watched enough videos of people that should be capable of shooting at least decent in a defensive situation miss a lot, I am willing to accept I may have issues myself. That being said, I hope to never have to use a handgun in a defensive manner on any four or two legged critters. When I go up north I am willing to deal with a worn out spark plug gap worth of less diameter when I can go from 10 rounds to 15 rounds in the magazine (not 9mm).

[CPJ 2.0]

.45 in theory makes a bigger hole. 9mm has higher capacity and makes more holes. Bigger overall hole area, or more chances to miss?

Miss???
9mmmiss.jpg

Having never been in a situation where I need to use a handgun in a defensive manner, Im open to the possibility that I may not be shooting my best. Having watched enough videos of people that should be capable of shooting at least decent in a defensive situation miss a lot, I am willing to accept I may have issues myself. That being said, I hope to never have to use a handgun in a defensive manner on any four or two legged critters. When I go up north I am willing to deal with a worn out spark plug gap worth of less diameter when I can go from 10 rounds to 15 rounds in the magazine (not 9mm).

Yeah. That. In spades.