I can but I can't believe the direction hunting is going

[12th Man]

As most know my two neighbors behind my ranch are high fence operations. Both great neighbors and friends! One ranch is 168 acres the other 240 acres. I guess if you have money and are totally lazy this is for you. These small game ranch operations are purchasing a given animal to hunt, having it delivered to their ranch a few months or so ahead of the scheduled hunt and guaranteeing success. From the rancher point of view I get it. They're in it to make money. This is easy money if you can find the clients.

Currently you can take a 150/160 class whitetail for $3750 to $4200. A 350 class 6X6 elk for $8500.00. The elk is currently on the ranch directly behind me. I look forward to when it starts bugling.

The real down fall to hunting in the future is when you have access to live satellite feeds and you can where the animals are.

Thoughts

[CPJ 2.0]

It’s not for me. I’d rather shoot nothing.
Different strokes for different folks.

Today a friend and I were scouting a couple hundred acres. Trying to see where the deer were coming and going. That’s a lot of the fun for me. There’s no promises of where they will be or when. Or what will show up. Maybe a doe, maybe a spike. Maybe a 180” buck.

[Justsomedude]

I cant kill things anymore. Busted a rabbit that was getting in our garden a few weeks ago and felt terrible over it the next few days.

[Zee]

Livestock with a twist.
Pay the butcher or do it yourself.

[Freezer]

I was a still hunter in the Cascade Mountains of Northern California. The hunter success rate there was one every 9 years, I got a buck every year and sometimes two. I practiced scent control and hunted on the ground, I was one with the woods. I'm in Pa. now, it really doesn't feel like hunting. I don't pay for the experience, but it's not spot and stock, I'm not one with the woods, it's not the same! With two steel knees, two bad hips, and a bumm shoulder, I'm comfortable, but I miss the thrill of the hunt. Mono-e-mono, I was on the ground in their living room, and they didn't know I was there. What a rush! The meat was great but, the hunt was fantastic. Now it's sit in comfort and wait for something to walk by, meh. I wouldn't give $20 for a hunt like this.

Fiddler On the Roof: "Would affect your master plan sooo much, if I was a rich man?".

[12th Man]

Livestock with a twist.
Pay the butcher or do it yourself.

Pretty fare statement!

Oh the stories that will be told on how difficult the stalk and hunt was. What an incredible shot that was made!

[Zee]

I run a high fence ranch as a favor to a friend when I’m not selling shoes. It’s like a personal science project. Food, water, shelter, keep the predators down, and decide what game lives and dies according to age, genetics, and population. I enjoy the the science of it. I get to be a rancher with my own Petrie Dish and not pay for the cost.
When we have deer to take, I do my best to provide a fun experience and take home some good meat. It’s not guaranteed, but I’m there every day unless I’m out of town and I know every deer on the place. I have them kinda figured out. May take a few days, but I’ve done my homework.
It’s not a hunt in my book from the rugged aspect of the term. It’s “gathering” and like I said, I try to make it fun. I let folks use guns they may never get to see or touch. I let them use platforms (ie: pistols) they may have never used. Shoot distances they’ve never shot. Learn skills they’ve never had. Hunt nights. And take game or bucks they might not have the opportunity to take elsewhere.
I’ve hosted several forum members and to the best of my knowledge, we’ve always had a blast. To the point they come back.

So again, it’s a “gathering” in many ways. A gathering of food, experiences, and friendship.

Forum member or not, I’ve never had a complaint. It is what it is. It’s not a backcountry pack in trip. But then, if you show up with and understanding of expectations, I’ll give you a good time.

All depends on what you’re after.

[12th Man]

I run a high fence ranch as a favor to a friend when I’m not selling shoes. It’s like a personal science project. Food, water, shelter, keep the predators down, and decide what game lives and dies according to age, genetics, and population. I enjoy the the science of it. I get to be a rancher with my own Petrie Dish and not pay for the cost.
When we have deer to take, I do my best to provide a fun experience and take home some good meat. It’s not guaranteed, but I’m there every day unless I’m out of town and I know every deer on the place. I have them kinda figured out. May take a few days, but I’ve done my homework.
It’s not a hunt in my book from the rugged aspect of the term. It’s “gathering” and like I said, I try to make it fun. I let folks use guns they may never get to see or touch. I let them use platforms (ie: pistols) they may have never used. Shoot distances they’ve never shot. Learn skills they’ve never had. Hunt nights. And take game or bucks they might not have the opportunity to take elsewhere.
I’ve hosted several forum members and to the best of my knowledge, we’ve always had a blast. To the point they come back.

So again, it’s a “gathering” in many ways. A gathering of food, experiences, and friendship.

Forum member or not, I’ve never had a complaint. It is what it is. It’s not a backcountry pack in trip. But then, if you show up with and understanding of expectations, I’ll give you a good time.

All depends on what you’re after.

You make great points. My buddy and I are coming to Rock Springs to hunt on a friends big ranch the Monday after Thanksgiving I believe. He's much like you, knows his deer and locations and provides a great hunt. I've hunted BB and Axis with him and never disappointed. Those were challenging hunts with a lot of stalking. First time we'll be hunting WT with him so not sure what to expect.

Yours aren't canned hunts but fair chase. Bringing animals in for a guaranteed hunt on a small high fence ranch is a canned hunt in my opinion. To each there own I guess.

[Freezer]

There are a lot of variations to hunting today. When I lived in Kaliforniastan I hunted the Cascade Mountains for Black tail and bear. The hills, all the terrain, were 33 degrees. I was a still hunter and got a buck, sometimes two, every year. The average hunter got one every 9 years. Now, as you have seen, I hunt in heated blinds with coffee and warm food. I'm old, I have two steel knees, bad hips, bad shoulders, and I hurt. I still can't sit all day, I'm slowly starting to explore the strip mine I' hunting in. To each their own, but I love spot and stock! If I pay for a hunt, I want to hunt!

Rabbit and squirrel are ok, but I miss duck hunting! That is something I'd pay for! A nice blind on the flyway with waterfowl over head...you can't have more fun with your cloths on!

[shotgunshooter3]

Canned hunts aren't really for me, but more power to them I guess. To me the process is more fun than the kill in many ways. The planning, practicing shooting, fitness, sucking up snowy days, everything about it is part of the fun to me.

[bullsi1911]

Hunting is different in every area of the US. In Arkansas, it is perfectly legal and acceptable to run deer with dogs and blast the deer with a shotgun as they charge through a clearing to get away from the pack. I don’t hunt like that, but I don’t look down on anyone for doing it that way.

To each their own.

[Freezer]

I hunted and still hunt public land. I entered the field at 4:30 and didn't come out until after dark. I miss those times. I hunted waterfowl in the refuge system, not great hunting, but it was hunting. That's why I still try to walk the woods, It's great to sit in comfort but... I can't image a life so busy making money that I have to shoot caged animals. I feel sorry for them.

[mitdr774]

A family friend used to have a 500+ acre high fence operation. I helped with some chores a few times and also helped in the doe harvest several times. As "payment" for some work I did I was offered a management buck one time. Every animal on that property was either born there or had been brought in to introduce new genetics and was there for at least several years before it was available to a hunter. If an animal didnt want to be seen, it would not be seen. Every year he would review trail cam pictures to see who was moving where and would always see pictures of deer he didnt know were on the property. Then again there was also a decent size of the property that was off limits to people no matter what. It had been like that since before the property was high fenced, and was kept that way to leave a place for the deer to go and not be disturbed. That place did not do like almost every other operation in the state and as a result was not exactly a lucrative operation. Most of the operations around place their orders with a breeder and have the animals delivered a month or two before they are shot.

I woudnt call it hunting, but his deer were not tame deer. Sure you could get close during the off season or when working the feed troughs, but once the season started the deer could get scarce if they wanted. Some of the best tasting deer meat I have ever had though.

[jbp-ohio]

Around here it's pay to play. Hard to find someone willing to give you permission on private land. When they changed the way farmland was taxed in the 90's (?), many farmers couldn't afford the 2x-3x increase. Had to find new ways to pay it every year. Sell off one acre road frontage plots for houses or lease it to hunters.

[fisheadgib]

That actually isn't anything new. Texas has more commercial hunting ranches than any other state, somewhere around 1000. The Farrell ranch has been in that business for around 90 years and I don't really think that hunting is really migrating to that. There always will be people that want to harvest a "trophy" but may not have the skill or time to get there but have more money than skill. Your neighbors just want to cash in on that.

[Gene L]

I've run out of desire when it comes to killing stuff. I've done my share back when, but now I've retired. And I don't miss it; if I did, I would be out there. I've sold most of my guns and even collecting guns I'll never use is in my past.

[Bigslug]

I think Zee pretty well nails it with that process being more "gathering" than "hunting". It's going to depend a lot on the details: on a big enough spread where the only thing the animals are provided is a fence that keeps outside interference outside, and they otherwise breed and live their lives, you can probably make a pretty good experience out of it.

And I don't know that what Zee is doing on his buddy's ranch isn't all that different from what I'm doing. I've been stomping the same small area of CA National Forest for over a decade now, and have somewhat learned the game patterns and trails. Last year was the first time that I was truly sure of seeing the same deer on different days (got one of them), but then he's got the benefit of being on the ground on a near daily basis, and I'm more in the world of "shoot now or probably never see them again".

If the animal's food and water is provided by man at regular times and places, it's more like McDonald's with the additions of terminal ballistic research and carcass prep. I think there can be a benefit to that, as it can teach people where food comes from and how to make it and give them a more realistic outlook on the world, but Hawkeye tracking wild herds through the untamed frontier with his flintlock it ain't.

I dunno. . .anthropologically speaking, early man was "hunting" for the biggest nutritional payoff with the least risk of injury and was not above teaming up to drive herds over cliffs with fire. I guess I'd equate that somewhat with the "canned hunt", and both are a very different act than the solo track and kill of a truly wild critter with some kind of individual weapon. I guess if I'm going to conjure up any discomfort, it would be at the prospect of selling the former experience as the latter, and sending some city slicker home with the false notion that he's some kind of outdoorsman for having knocked a penned zoo animal in the head. I figure I have something like 150-180 active hunting days spent for my four deer, to say nothing of pre-season prep hikes - if you haven't had the outdoor discomforts combined with the process of figuring out how your animal lives, I won't begrudge you your fun, but I'm not terribly inclined to hand you the "hunting" merit badge.

[Zee]

I think Zee pretty well nails it with that process being more "gathering" than "hunting". It's going to depend a lot on the details: on a big enough spread where the only thing the animals are provided is a fence that keeps outside interference outside, and they otherwise breed and live their lives, you can probably make a pretty good experience out of it.

And I don't know that what Zee is doing on his buddy's ranch isn't all that different from what I'm doing. I've been stomping the same small area of CA National Forest for over a decade now, and have somewhat learned the game patterns and trails. Last year was the first time that I was truly sure of seeing the same deer on different days (got one of them), but then he's got the benefit of being on the ground on a near daily basis, and I'm more in the world of "shoot now or probably never see them again".

If the animal's food and water is provided by man at regular times and places, it's more like McDonald's with the additions of terminal ballistic research and carcass prep. I think there can be a benefit to that, as it can teach people where food comes from and how to make it and give them a more realistic outlook on the world, but Hawkeye tracking wild herds through the untamed frontier with his flintlock it ain't.

I dunno. . .anthropologically speaking, early man was "hunting" for the biggest nutritional payoff with the least risk of injury and was not above teaming up to drive herds over cliffs with fire. I guess I'd equate that somewhat with the "canned hunt", and both are a very different act than the solo track and kill of a truly wild critter with some kind of individual weapon. I guess if I'm going to conjure up any discomfort, it would be at the prospect of selling the former experience as the latter, and sending some city slicker home with the false notion that he's some kind of outdoorsman for having knocked a penned zoo animal in the head. I figure I have something like 150-180 active hunting days spent for my four deer, to say nothing of pre-season prep hikes - if you haven't had the outdoor discomforts combined with the process of figuring out how your animal lives, I won't begrudge you your fun, but I'm not terribly inclined to hand you the "hunting" merit badge.

Well said.

[Zee]

I run a high fence ranch as a favor to a friend when I’m not selling shoes. It’s like a personal science project. Food, water, shelter, keep the predators down, and decide what game lives and dies according to age, genetics, and population. I enjoy the the science of it. I get to be a rancher with my own Petrie Dish and not pay for the cost.
When we have deer to take, I do my best to provide a fun experience and take home some good meat. It’s not guaranteed, but I’m there every day unless I’m out of town and I know every deer on the place. I have them kinda figured out. May take a few days, but I’ve done my homework.
It’s not a hunt in my book from the rugged aspect of the term. It’s “gathering” and like I said, I try to make it fun. I let folks use guns they may never get to see or touch. I let them use platforms (ie: pistols) they may have never used. Shoot distances they’ve never shot. Learn skills they’ve never had. Hunt nights. And take game or bucks they might not have the opportunity to take elsewhere.
I’ve hosted several forum members and to the best of my knowledge, we’ve always had a blast. To the point they come back.

So again, it’s a “gathering” in many ways. A gathering of food, experiences, and friendship.

Forum member or not, I’ve never had a complaint. It is what it is. It’s not a backcountry pack in trip. But then, if you show up with and understanding of expectations, I’ll give you a good time.

All depends on what you’re after.

You make great points. My buddy and I are coming to Rock Springs to hunt on a friends big ranch the Monday after Thanksgiving I believe. He's much like you, knows his deer and locations and provides a great hunt. I've hunted BB and Axis with him and never disappointed. Those were challenging hunts with a lot of stalking. First time we'll be hunting WT with him so not sure what to expect.

Yours aren't canned hunts but fair chase. Bringing animals in for a guaranteed hunt on a small high fence ranch is a canned hunt in my opinion. To each there own I guess.

I can provide whatever the client wants.

If they want to hunt in a blind, I can do that.
If they want to rattle or call a deer in, I can do that.
If they want to hide in a bush on a travel route, I can do that.
If they want to spot and stalk………….in the south Texas brush country…………I can do that. But, good luck.

Point is, I will give you what you want and I will give you 100%! Your results will vary. You tell me what you want. I’m your huckleberry.

[Zee]

Some folks want something different than others. But, the experience they desire………is the experience they choose. So, why would you judge someone with different expectations than you?

Not saying I like their expectations. But, it’s always a personal choice. At least they aren’t buying beef from the big food chain. Hard core or canned hunt. They got outside and did something different. May not agree. But they did.

Your other option is to badger anyone who doesn’t hunt “your way” until you kill any aspect of the sport.

Ball is in your court.







And it took me many years to come to that conclusion. Their expectations may not be mine. But I will give them what they want to keep what I want alive. Compromise.

[GrapeApe]

Decided to look, here's the price list for one available in this state:

120-129” - $2,000
130-139” - $3,000
140-149” - $4,000
150-159” - $5,000
160-169” - $6,000
170-179” - $7,000
180-189” - $8,000
190-199” - $9,000
200-249” - $10,000
250” + - $11,000

https://sandrockranchwhitetails.com/ala ... deer-hunts
I'll pass

[CPJ 2.0]

Decided to look, here's the price list for one available in this state:

120-129” - $2,000
130-139” - $3,000
140-149” - $4,000
150-159” - $5,000
160-169” - $6,000
170-179” - $7,000
180-189” - $8,000
190-199” - $9,000
200-249” - $10,000
250” + - $11,000

https://sandrockranchwhitetails.com/ala ... deer-hunts
I'll pass

Looking at some of their deer, they aren’t even real. Freaks of nature that in no way shape or form exist in the real world.

[GrapeApe]

I actually SAW this beast at my processor, as they were trying to measure it.
They roughly called it a 240"
I seriously doubt he got that big naturally. Some of the places I saw offered breeding services or pregnant does for sale. I suspect his genetics aren't naturally occurring in the area he was supposedly killed

[Bigslug]

Some folks want something different than others. But, the experience they desire………is the experience they choose. So, why would you judge someone with different expectations than you?

Not saying I like their expectations. But, it’s always a personal choice. At least they aren’t buying beef from the big food chain. Hard core or canned hunt. They got outside and did something different. May not agree. But they did.

Your other option is to badger anyone who doesn’t hunt “your way” until you kill any aspect of the sport.

Ball is in your court.


And it took me many years to come to that conclusion. Their expectations may not be mine. But I will give them what they want to keep what I want alive. Compromise.

TRUTH! We have a lot of idiots of all political stripes trying to tell the rest of the world how they should think and live. It's likely that nobody is 100% immune to the tendency - - but when it comes to killing "livestock" raised for the purpose in legal fashion on private property, I reason that only the true moral vegans have something like a valid argument.

Still, when I look at the "antlers by the inch" pricing, I admit to being a little mystified at the thought of glassing around and being told which deer my credit rating is or isn't good for; and working up the per-pound meat price in my head. I think anybody who has actually done the "real work" would prefer to get up at a leisurely pace, eat a casual breakfast in their jammies at the kitchen table, go out well after dawn, select a steer, and shoot him at the base of the skull.

But in a way, I still get it. One phenomenon I've witnessed is that the woods can be full of people on opening weekend who like the "idea" of hunting, and by Monday, they've realized it involves getting up early, being cold, covering a lot of ground, and usually seeing nothing for long periods. "Our way" of doing it ain't for everyone either.

[Chiro1989]

I won a Kentucky deer hunt through Grizzly Tobacco last year and the place put 10 hunters on their properties to hunt, middle of November. They surveyed us the night we got there, I was late because of major flight delays and missed some stuff, but I ended up with a videographer and had to hunt with 1/2 the guys on a farm a little over an hour from the main property where we were staying. Got up at 4 am to get dressed and drive to the lodge to load up lunch and grab some breakfast, drove a little over an hour to get to the farm we were hunting on with one of the other winners that drove to the hunt. Each hunter was ferried to his stand or blind individually by guides, there were at least 10 other hunters, it was a lengthy process. I got some plastic elevated 2 man stand that had a couple crappy chairs in it, I grabbed the swivel office chair as the shooter, right plastic armrest was broken and made a lovely clunking noise if you leaned on it just right. Camera dude was an excellent person and had some very cool cameras, a Sony digital "camcorder" with night vision, and a bunch of GoPros, poor guy has a lot of pictures of me peeing, I offered to pitch in for some counseling, he graciously declined. We had to stay in the stand all day, no walking allowed, safety reasons, but, no explanation of terrain or deer routes either, OnX saved the day. We were not allowed to look for deer we shot, nor gut them. If they had to track a deer you shot, there would be additional fees. I was told before the hunt that my longest shot would be 200yds so that's where I was sighted in for with a 300 Win Mag, my stand was in the middle of a large corn stubble field and my longest shot was lasered at 485 yds, I have never shot that far in my life, phone service was good so I looked some stuff up for my loads and had a hail mary plan just in case. At some point the stand we were in must have blown over, the widows were filthy and had not been cleaned, it was snowing, windy and damp cold that first day, had to leave some of the windows shut, no heater in the stand. Videographer has never deer hunted before, all of his cases had velcro on them so we had that conversation, he was not dressed appropriately, I was pretty good, they loaded us up on a bunch of midweight Sitka gear as part of the prize and I was layered up appropriately, coffee and irish cream in my thermos stayed hot most of the day. They had the smallest percolator you could buy in the main kitchen and we had Keurigs in the cabins we stayed in, for some reason coffee was hard to come by, there had to be 25 trucks at the main lodge in the AM, a commercial coffee maker would have been nice.

Now, there were rules, minimum buck deer had to be 130"'s, I have no clue how to estimate inches on the hoof, anything less and there would be a fee, I assumed I would have to pay the fee, apparently this was not the case I learned on the last day. I saw at least 30-40 deer that first day, mostly does and fawns, one nice 6 pointer, videographer thought I should shoot it, I googled a 130" 6 pointer for him Sun went down, got ferried back to the trucks, drove back to the lodge and got back at 8pm, grabbed dinner and went back to cabin, ate, showered, and hit the rack, same pattern for 4 days.

Next day, same stand, same deer, much warmer day though. We as a group had, and still have, a group text going and a couple deer were taken, 8 pointers, lots of bitching about nothing but squirrels, so I was glad to be seeing deer, good humor with the group overall though. A couple of the southern boys froze in their ladder stands that first day AND saw very little deer activity and shared their displeasure with management, that got us labeled the first day as "those Grizzly guys", my "guide" was a former cheesehead, he was a pretty good guy and appreciated my hunting since he knew what it was like "up North", I think he got an earful though. The main marketing guy for Grizzly was hunting with us also, awesome guy, he was feeling some frustration too and was trying to make the hunt good for all of us, we were getting the feeling we were getting the short end of the stick and the outfit was catering to their regulars. We had also seen some of the deer that got harvested at the main lodge and where we hunted, most of us had not even glimpsed a shooter buck per the outfit standards, I had not seen anything over 6 pts in 2 days. We got the stand shuffle after the weekend and the regulars went home, I think 1/2 the hunters were gone Monday AM, I got set up in a ground blind on a smaller stubble field, max 100 yd shots, and saw some good activity, again, no consultation about terrain or deer paths. I finally had a nice 8 pointer pop out onto the field I was on hard to my left, he walked away from me with his head down and I only glimpsed his rack, he was heading towards some corn on the ground and would have to turn to the right to feed, deer was walking the edge of the field and went left just as he passed a large tree, I had a shot but the 130" minimum was singing in my ear and I hesitated thinking he might come back for a bite, never saw him again. Videographer got some good footage thinking I was going to take a shot, turns out that was probably the biggest deer the group would see a 4 days, I still never got a good look, only had A Texas heart shot and I was not going to do that.

C7EF0203-3C87-415F-BEF6-4C62423C5776.jpeg (5.73 MiB) Viewed 7103 times

A BIG problem the group had was the handling of the harvested deer. We saw deer getting hauled out at the farm we were on all weekend, none of the deer were gutted, when we got back to the trucks in the evening at the staging area, the deer were still not gutted. When we got back to the lodge, the deer shot around the lodge were also not gutted. The deer were piled on trailers or laying on the ground as a group but just randomly, no meat pole. To say that went over like a lead balloon was an understatement, to a tee we were all appalled by the poor handling of the meat and the poor respect for the bucks. One of the Georgia or Alabama boys shot one on the third day and got out of his stand and gutted the deer before the guide showed up, they started to give him a hard time and he informed them what we thought about their deer processing and they backed off, didn't hurt that he was about 6'2" and 250#, that further cemented our reputations as problem children with the employees.

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By the third day we were pretty disgruntled, this was rich horse guys operation with similar customers and we were hunt 10-20 days a year guys, we heard the third day they had laid out some of the bucks on the ground to spell out the initials of the place and took a picture with a drone, I did not see this myself. My videographer was exhausted by the 3rd day, he was uploading and editing until 1-2AM every day and wanted to sleep, he had more than enough video of me peeing apparently, I am sure there was some good footage of Mr. Happy peeing out of a ground blind window. I got moved to another farm on the last day that the Grizzly marketing guide harvested a nice buck on 120" on, we got to the staging area around noon and got on a side by side to go out to the stand, we were running trails on ridges, it was like a ride at Disney land, there were deer running to the right and left all of the way to the stands! I got settled in on a ladder stand on a hillside looking down the gulley at a creek bed, and it starts to rain. All you can hear is rain hitting the leaves on the ground, but the deer were chasing, and soon a 6 pt was chasing a doe past my left downhill, watched them for a bit and a couple of 8 pointers roll in along the creek bottom and also and a couple more does, very cool day watching them, no shooters though, and frankly, I was less than enthused about the staff processing my deer, part of the hunt was to get 50# of meat shipped back and any trophies. The guy I hunted with and drove with was from Georgia, by the evening of the last day he was feeling the pressure and kept seeing deer behind him but the would disappear in the terrain, he had to pee so he got out of the stand to do that and walked 20-30 yds behind his stand yo have a peak and a nice 8 pointer pops up, he took a standing shot and thinks he hit it, texts the guide and waits. They picked me up first at dusk and went to his stand, they asked where he was and where he shot the deer and proceeds to dress him down for getting out of the stand, a lot. That Georgia boy is as polite as they come and took it, the guide badgered him to the point that I was getting pissed off, I suggested we search for the deer and got him back on track. Long story short, nothing but a bit of belly hair, but it was raining off and on so hard to see blood or guts, but it was not everyones first rodeo, 5 guys looking and no deer was found, so no penalties assessed. Pretty sure none of the hunters than won the trip will ever darken their doorsteps again, even if they win the lottery.

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I was appalled enough about the ungutted deer that I talked to my processor, he was pretty dumfounded. I spoke with my local Conservation Officer and he was helpful in that he had seen worse cases and we talked about wanton waste, he suggested I talk to his counterparts in Kentucky, which I did and they pretty much said oh well, if they eventually butchered them, they did not care.

So, as to the state of hunting, to each his own, it was a good hunt, but the lodge was really a non-factor in that I was barely there for the amenities, I never even saw the place in the daylight until the day I left, I wish I knew what the lay of the land was better and expectations, find out ahead of time what is going to happen to your deer after you shoot it, my first "guided' big game hunt, unless you count me trying to keep up with MHS and JBOhio in CO.