.22lr For Personal Defense - Science

[NuttyNed]

Interesting test.
Based on some of the videos making the circuit, some people absorb 9mm and .40 rounds like that. Normally, they are on their "Death Run," or they are chemically resistant to trauma.

But for the typical miscreant you are likely to encounter, the pig doesn't have that morality awareness that will allow them to "quit" and run. They know it's bad. They know they don't like it. But they don't know their time on Earth is limited.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't tell someone it's a "terrible" choice.

Welcome back aboard

[Zee]

Interesting test.
Based on some of the videos making the circuit, some people absorb 9mm and .40 rounds like that. Normally, they are on their "Death Run," or they are chemically resistant to trauma.

But for the typical miscreant you are likely to encounter, the pig doesn't have that morality awareness that will allow them to "quit" and run. They know it's bad. They know they don't like it. But they don't know their time on Earth is limited.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't tell someone it's a "terrible" choice.

[Zee]

A round of applause for the shot placement!

VERY helpful to know that a 36 grain HP can penetrate across the chest cavity of a 170 pound mammal, even at belly gun barrel velocity. Given that the front end sheared off, though, and turned the bullet into a reduced-mass wadcutter, I'd probably be inclined to stick with a high-velocity soft-metal solid that's going to hold onto its weight and turn itself into a basically the same shape (flat point) for defense - Thunderbolts, maybe? Pretty clear that the HP's are the way to roll for small game though.

The fragmenting round seems to be able to penetrate enough, and I have to wonder what a swarm of them would accomplish, but given that each frag is only about 13 grains, tumbling randomly, it isn't filling me with warm, fuzzy confidence.

That was my initial intent. To load up a Mag of frang and let fly with as many as I could hit with. But, then I considered the chance to try multiple types of ammo. That thought prevailed.

[Bigslug]

22LR still wouldn't be my first choice, if other options were available, but it's a LOT better choice than a knife, a fist and a yell.
Nice test

And this is where I think this information is very handy.

When my grandmother was getting frail, she continued to live by herself out in the boonies up to the point it became completely untenable. For folks at that point in their lives, the double action trigger on a revolver isn't doable; working the slide on a combat-caliber auto isn't doable; handling "fighting gun" level recoil isn't doable; and handling the "weight-forward" mass of a tube-magazine shotgun isn't doable.

We ended up equipping her with a 4" Ruger MKI that she COULD load, cycle, and shoot. Had we been in the era of lightweight polymer-framed .22's, that would have been better still.

We tend to think in the extreme terms of instantly stopping the cranked-out dope fiend on a banzai charge with an exaggerated sense of blood lust. Given that we know that no handgun is a sure thing for that, and a good number of potential assailants won't be that motivated, I think this pig test shows that a good .22 round has a valid place at the table.

[Bigslug]

A round of applause for the shot placement!

VERY helpful to know that a 36 grain HP can penetrate across the chest cavity of a 170 pound mammal, even at belly gun barrel velocity. Given that the front end sheared off, though, and turned the bullet into a reduced-mass wadcutter, I'd probably be inclined to stick with a high-velocity soft-metal solid that's going to hold onto its weight and turn itself into a basically the same shape (flat point) for defense - Thunderbolts, maybe? Pretty clear that the HP's are the way to roll for small game though.

The fragmenting round seems to be able to penetrate enough, and I have to wonder what a swarm of them would accomplish, but given that each frag is only about 13 grains, tumbling randomly, it isn't filling me with warm, fuzzy confidence.

That was my initial intent. To load up a Mag of frang and let fly with as many as I could hit with. But, then I considered the chance to try multiple types of ammo. That thought prevailed.

No negative criticism from this camp. We use a Kevlar "fluff trap" at work for catching bullets undamaged for ballistic analysis, and it's a bitch to find the lump of even a whole .22 bullet in that stuff sometimes. Finding the pieces from one of those frangibles in a pig carcass without an X-ray machine would be an unenviable task.

Just something to add to your list of "stuff we don't know yet" for the ongoing series of trapped swine. I guess it would help to ease their passing to tell them that while most pigs die for bacon, they get to die for bacon AND knowledge.

[Zee]

22LR still wouldn't be my first choice, if other options were available, but it's a LOT better choice than a knife, a fist and a yell.
Nice test

And this is where I think this information is very handy.

When my grandmother was getting frail, she continued to live by herself out in the boonies up to the point it became completely untenable. For folks at that point in their lives, the double action trigger on a revolver isn't doable; working the slide on a combat-caliber auto isn't doable; handling "fighting gun" level recoil isn't doable; and handling the "weight-forward" mass of a tube-magazine shotgun isn't doable.

We ended up equipping her with a 4" Ruger MKI that she COULD load, cycle, and shoot. Had we been in the era of lightweight polymer-framed .22's, that would have been better still.

We tend to think in the extreme terms of instantly stopping the cranked-out dope fiend on a banzai charge with an exaggerated sense of blood lust. Given that we know that no handgun is a sure thing for that, and a good number of potential assailants won't be that motivated, I think this pig test shows that a good .22 round has a valid place at the table.

I agree with all that it wouldn’t be a first choice. But, with the information we gained, we know it “can” work and it gives us a direction to focus and train. As BigSlug has mentioned oft times, when you don’t have speed, you need “mass” and penetration. The absence of speed from a small .22lr pistol eliminates the productivity of a hollow point and personally I’d say the same for the frang as angle and clothing may/may not limit its ability to get to “the goods”. With that in mind and what we saw, I vote a heavy solid to at least get to the goods. And, as many friends as possible being sent in tandem.
A second point of learned info…….accuracy. Just making holes may not work and holes in the gut, shoulder, arms won’t have the effect desired for a cornered or determined assailant. We saw that multiple holes in the heart and aortic arch still had a somewhat slower stop clock. So, for one who chooses or has no choice but to use a .22lr, some level of ability in functioning the platform and hitting what need hit, along with the ability to do it rapidly and in excess, will shorten the time in the danger zone.

Anything worth shooting once……is worth shooting a lot of times.

[Zee]

Another non-scientific assumption. When I checked the clock on the video and we take out the gap of waiting between both volleys, we still reach an assumed time period of incapacitation of around 8-10 seconds to put the “threat” on the ground that we oft have with other larger, faster defensive rounds. The BIG difference being, that the previous test administered were one round of defensive and a clock to incapacitation. It took SIX .22lr rounds through the veritable heart to match every others cartridges ONE round incapacitation (CNS Hits not withstanding). Just food for thought.

[Diver43]

Much applause to the shooter and camera man.
Results close to what expected.
While not a personal choice, unlike a pig, a human is going to say/think oh shoot I'm hit and beging worry about death, except those hell bent on getting you or crazy.

Good science, if need to use a .22lr, mag dump and last 2 for the head I guess,

Next up .22 mag results?

[Zee]

Much applause to the shooter and camera man.
Results close to what expected.
While not a personal choice, unlike a pig, a human is going to say/think oh shoot I'm hit and beging worry about death, except those hell bent on getting you or crazy.

Good science, if need to use a .22lr, mag dump and last 2 for the head I guess,

Next up .22 mag results?

We already did a .22 Mag on the other forum about a month ago.
I’ll try to transfer the info to here.

[Chiro1989]

Good to see you back Dan

[bullsi1911]

Interesting test.
Based on some of the videos making the circuit, some people absorb 9mm and .40 rounds like that. Normally, they are on their "Death Run," or they are chemically resistant to trauma.

But for the typical miscreant you are likely to encounter, the pig doesn't have that morality awareness that will allow them to "quit" and run. They know it's bad. They know they don't like it. But they don't know their time on Earth is limited.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't tell someone it's a "terrible" choice.

Welcome back, Dan!

[bullsi1911]

22LR still wouldn't be my first choice, if other options were available, but it's a LOT better choice than a knife, a fist and a yell.
Nice test

And this is where I think this information is very handy.

When my grandmother was getting frail, she continued to live by herself out in the boonies up to the point it became completely untenable. For folks at that point in their lives, the double action trigger on a revolver isn't doable; working the slide on a combat-caliber auto isn't doable; handling "fighting gun" level recoil isn't doable; and handling the "weight-forward" mass of a tube-magazine shotgun isn't doable.

We ended up equipping her with a 4" Ruger MKI that she COULD load, cycle, and shoot. Had we been in the era of lightweight polymer-framed .22's, that would have been better still.

We tend to think in the extreme terms of instantly stopping the cranked-out dope fiend on a banzai charge with an exaggerated sense of blood lust. Given that we know that no handgun is a sure thing for that, and a good number of potential assailants won't be that motivated, I think this pig test shows that a good .22 round has a valid place at the table.

That’s where my mom is right now. She has a Rossi snub .38, a Walther PPK 380, a Colt 1911, and one of my shotguns at her house. But being 80+ with advanced arthritis, she took my Kel-Tc P17 for her defense gun. It fits her, and she can dump a whole bunch of high velocity .22s in the A-zone in a hurry. I call that good enough

[Diver43]

Much applause to the shooter and camera man.
Results close to what expected.
While not a personal choice, unlike a pig, a human is going to say/think oh shoot I'm hit and beging worry about death, except those hell bent on getting you or crazy.

Good science, if need to use a .22lr, mag dump and last 2 for the head I guess,

Next up .22 mag results?

We already did a .22 Mag on the other forum about a month ago.
I’ll try to transfer the info to here.

Yup you sure did, guess I'm getting forgetful in my old age
Would be great to have them both

[DanielChamberlain]

Interesting test.
Based on some of the videos making the circuit, some people absorb 9mm and .40 rounds like that. Normally, they are on their "Death Run," or they are chemically resistant to trauma.

But for the typical miscreant you are likely to encounter, the pig doesn't have that morality awareness that will allow them to "quit" and run. They know it's bad. They know they don't like it. But they don't know their time on Earth is limited.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't tell someone it's a "terrible" choice.

Welcome back, Dan!

Thank you.
Good to know there's still a campfire.

[Bigslug]

Another non-scientific assumption. When I checked the clock on the video and we take out the gap of waiting between both volleys, we still reach an assumed time period of incapacitation of around 8-10 seconds to put the “threat” on the ground that we oft have with other larger, faster defensive rounds. The BIG difference being, that the previous test administered were one round of defensive and a clock to incapacitation. It took SIX .22lr rounds through the veritable heart to match every others cartridges ONE round incapacitation (CNS Hits not withstanding). Just food for thought.

My Dad's 2014 buck took two .45-70 solids - one in the back of the heart, the other about an inch and half behind it - from opposite sides of the body, in the space of no more than this 8-10 seconds under discussion The first one got him doing his death circle; the second was probably the feather that knocked him down.

One possibility is that your first three rounds softened the sow up, and the second volley drained out the last bit of will.

Another is that we watched the cumulative effect of small diameter solids into the tough and elastic muscles of the heart - ultimately fatal, but comparatively lengthy due to the lack of an effective drain for the blood to leak out.

A third is that something in the last three shots broke something the first three did not, and that would have solved the problem in 8-10 seconds without the first three having been fired.

Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmm"

[Zee]

Sounds like your father didn’t need the second shot. But, prudently made it anyway.

[Bigslug]

Sounds like your father didn’t need the second shot. But, prudently made it anyway.

It was actually one of the coolest things it's been my pleasure to watch - let alone take part in. He spotted, I got binos on and confirmed legal status while he got the round chambered and the scope caps up. First shot went in left broadside and I saw a good impact . . .which he incorrectly perceived from the deer's hunching reaction as a gut shot.

I was in the process of telling him the deed was done when he dropped the hammer the second time through the right side. Basically, he made the exact same fatal shot twice in the time it took to cycle the action and settle, twice. Given the spot the buck fell, recovery was laughably easy, but could have been excruciatingly hard - and Dad being 64 at the time, it would have been me doing it. I was glad of the second thump.

A pretty good lesson in the philosophy of shoot till they're down.

[jkp]

Excellent work as always.

Any chance you can test with a 5.7x28? That round is the subject of much debate regarding its self defense suitability.

[Admin]

Just an FYI- Palmetto has the P-17 on sale for $199.99 right now.

[Zee]

Excellent work as always.

Any chance you can test with a 5.7x28? That round is the subject of much debate regarding its self defense suitability.

Unfortunately, I don’t have one.

[Zee]

Just an FYI- Palmetto has the P-17 on sale for $199.99 right now.

It’s the handiest, most reliable (non-Ruger MK Series) .22lr pistol I’ve ever shot. And comes with great adjustable sights.

I want to sell my G44 now.

[CPJ 2.0]

Just an FYI- Palmetto has the P-17 on sale for $199.99 right now.

It’s the handiest, most reliable (non-Ruger MK Series) .22lr pistol I’ve ever shot. And comes with great adjustable sights.

I want to sell my G44 now.

I’ve purposefully abused the one my daughter is getting. Didn’t clean it out of the box. It’s got 3-400-ish rounds through it, never had an issue with 4 or 5 different ammo types.
It does feel cheap, but it works.

[jkp]

Just an FYI- Palmetto has the P-17 on sale for $199.99 right now.

It’s the handiest, most reliable (non-Ruger MK Series) .22lr pistol I’ve ever shot. And comes with great adjustable sights.

I want to sell my G44 now.

I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun...

[CPJ 2.0]

Just an FYI- Palmetto has the P-17 on sale for $199.99 right now.

It’s the handiest, most reliable (non-Ruger MK Series) .22lr pistol I’ve ever shot. And comes with great adjustable sights.

I want to sell my G44 now.

I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun, I do not need another .22LR handgun...

Yes, a super reliable 16+1 .22 that comes with 3 mags and is suppressor ready and Is something you can bang around with zero regard isn’t something you’d want, I’m certain.

[CPJ 2.0]

And it has an excellent trigger.