ICE dumps the SigP320/M18

[CPJ 2.0]

Well, the Air Force had a guy killed by one, so there’s that. Along with a lot of other uncommanded discharges.


Which in Sigs most recent statement, which was kind of walking back the “it ends today” nonsense they called them “accidental discharges.”
Words have meanings for reasons.

[Wambli Ska]

Hey I don’t know either way. My opinion is based on ONE report. If I see others, in the raw, not interpreted for me by some internet expert, I’ll read it as thoroughly as I did this one and continue to form my own opinion. Just saying there’s a lot of user “mistakes” blamed on manufacturers out there and a whole lot of P320s in use not going off by themselves.

[CPJ 2.0]

Slide wiggle in a Glock could be 10 times what it is. The striker won’t strike because it isn’t cocked like the sig.

There is obviously SOMETHING going on for ICE, Air Force, Washington State, and several other agencies to ban the use of the 320. As well as multiple gun training sites.

[jkp]

Slide wiggle in a Glock could be 10 times what it is. The striker won’t strike because it isn’t cocked like the sig.

There is obviously SOMETHING going on for ICE, Air Force, Washington State, and several other agencies to ban the use of the 320. As well as multiple gun training sites.

Especially when it has financial implications for them to do so.

[Wambli Ska]

Slide wiggle in a Glock could be 10 times what it is. The striker won’t strike because it isn’t cocked like the sig.

There is obviously SOMETHING going on for ICE, Air Force, Washington State, and several other agencies to ban the use of the 320. As well as multiple gun training sites.

There’s definitely smoke so there MIGHT be a fire. Hey if someone wants to give away a P320 for science I’ll be happy to take it and do my own testing. Except for the X-Rays, the almighty FBI didn’t poop I can’t do at home myself…

And if SIGS go on deep bankruptcy clearance I’ll be buying a P365 Macro for myself. That’s a sweet gun!

[Jay]

Our SRT guys were using P320s. Until yesterday. The captain over them is also my captain. He asked me for my thoughts. I provided him my thoughts. They’re back to Glock 17 5th gens. Which is where they should have stayed to begin with, IMO.

Not that my opinion made the decision. It was already in the works. I was just asked as a former instructor. Sig made their bed…

[GrapeApe]

Until all this shakes out, you couldn't GIVE me a P320 if I had to EDC it.

Is there a chance SIG will come out smelling like a rose?
Sure there is. There's also a chance that I'll hit the lottery and in my new house, my "gun safe" will make most banks' vaults look TINY

[Bigslug]

I certainly not trying to be contentious but I tend to be REALLY thorough when it comes to this type of stuff and do my own research and make up my own mind. . .

. . .So in summary, enough stuff in the actual report for me to think, MAYBE, some dude is just covering his ass after doing something STUPID and looking for a settlement from SIG. Maybe...

We're at a point where if there's an accidental/negligent/uncommanded discharge anywhere, the first question that comes up is "Was it a Sig?", and the answer most commonly coming up is "Yes".

Your point is a valid one, and I am probably more likely to claim "idiot operator" than most.

The difference with the really good "legend" designs of history is that an expert on the design could inspect it, confirm it's up to code, and state "X, Y, and Z must all occur before this thing can go off".

I'd be perfectly happy getting up on the witness stand and saying that a Glock isn't even cocked until you pre-travel the trigger, and it has a bunch of stuff keeping the firing pin off the primer until you do, or that a 1911's safety and grip safety have to be disengaged before the trigger can even move. The Sig blueprint is having more trouble making claims like that, and we're getting enough anecdotal evidence floating around to suggest, "wellllllll. . .maybe not".

And when you get right down to it, those really good "legend" designs of history are known for working as intended in the face of abuse, neglect, and even shoddy workmanship.

Even if these lawsuits are coming from ambulance chasers, they seem to have picked the right ambulance to chase.

[Wambli Ska]

And when you get right down to it, those really good "legend" designs of history are known for working as intended in the face of abuse, neglect, and even shoddy workmanship.

Even if these lawsuits are coming from ambulance chasers, they seem to have picked the right ambulance to chase.

I certainly agree with these statements. And to be perfectly frank when I see the inner works of the P320 my brain goes WTF?!?!? There is a whole lot of crap in there, but I can say something close or the same of a lot of guns nowadays. The thought of a pretensioned firing pin does in fact give me pause, until I remember that every bolt action rifle I own has a pretensioned firing pin when I close the bolt on a round, and many pistols are carried with a cocked hammer, sooooooooo...

And again it's the "anecdotal" part that makes me... suspicious. There was a WHOLE LOT of anecdotal BS going on when Glocks first made the scene in significant numbers and a whole lot of operator errors were covered up as claims of "design flaws". And just plain math says that having a LOT of guns in circulation makes for a lot of IDIOTS handling them, statistically speaking. It''s like saying if you own a pool you are way more likely to die by drowning in a pool. My brain only works on facts and numbers, not anecdotes, just wired that way. And I bought a LOT of really great Rems 700s when folks where dumping them cheap because of the "unsafe" trigger that Remington ended up replacing with the worst trigger ever

[CPJ 2.0]

The videos showing where they went off whilst in the holster with no touchy touchy, are pretty concerning.

[Wambli Ska]

You got links to the actual videos? I really haven't seen those. This has been in the periphery for me and I'm too lazy to google them and go through the 10,000 interpretive versions by every YouTube commando..

[GrapeApe]

I certainly not trying to be contentious but I tend to be REALLY thorough when it comes to this type of stuff and do my own research and make up my own mind. <snip>

You got links to the actual videos? I really haven't seen those. This has been in the periphery for me and I'm too lazy to google them and go through the 10,000 interpretive versions by every YouTube commando..

Make up your damned mind will you, do you do your own research, or do you want everyone else to do it for you?

Hell, surveillance and body cam videos of p320s going off aren't very hard to find. I suspect I spent less time finding these, than you did "reading the entire document. <SMH> Sometimes I think you just enjoy trolling people

https://youtu.be/Vqdo1T19EIg?si=-sBEXxeH7lw1kwhf

Go to the 4:30 mark on this one https://youtu.be/bgMpHs-3SWc?si=jtQtyKFQV3lsgB4J

Go to the 1:45 mark on this one https://youtu.be/Qcf4J4VPLdc?si=EKNRE2iPoQ8V16DY

2 shots videod https://youtu.be/Vqdo1T19EIg?si=MijqxFXJugtJJGcr

https://youtu.be/b1rZFIfcK38?si=qFf3dj8gHA6oNV8g

You can go back to doing your own research if those aren't enough

[Wambli Ska]

Thanks for the videos but the comment about me "trolling people" is absolute poop and totally unnecessary. I'm trying to keep an open mind about the subject and just stated so and an FBI report seemed like the ONLY absolutely objective thing I've seen on this so I took the time to read it. The rest of the info I've seen is all suspect at best and full of other folks opinions and comments that do not interest me at all. But, I guess if I'm not ready to dump on SIG I'm not welcome into the discussion here so screw it I'm out.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel like it was such an effort for you to go get these. You didn't have to and I didn't ask you to. Have a great day.

[CPJ 2.0]

<snip>You got links to the actual videos? <snip>

<snip> You didn't have to and I didn't ask you to. <snip>

Well, I mean you did ask.......

[Wambli Ska]

I asked you and no one has to answer if it’s too fücking taxing on their time end energy. And I fail to see who I’ve been trolling.

[CPJ 2.0]

He beat me to it.

[Wambli Ska]

Were you also going to give me crap for asking and say I’m trolling people?

[Bigslug]

Don't go all Sam Waas cranky on us.

As I mention toward the start of this puppy, video from Ceres, CA Police from July 3:

https://hoodline.com/2025/07/ceres-poli ... %20present.

And you bring up the 700 trigger. Very much in the same ballpark of what I was talking about with designs NOT being resistant to abuse, neglect, or well-intentioned, but ignorant care or tinkering. That was a mechanism susceptible to both Bubba trigger jobs and getting glued into the "wrong" position by dried up WD-40.

Another one of those things that separates the "legends" from the crap: the crap probably got designed by gun people for other gun people living in their own little bubble. The legends likely got subjected to some kind of LEGITIMATE trial in which the prototypes were handed to knuckle-draggers prone to do horrid things which would never even occur to the more saavy, and actually subjected to things like wear, dirt, and abuse. The 320 didn't get ANY of that - it seems to be more of a "Let's get a lot of them out as fast as we can before the first buyers realized it's not the next P226"

[Wambli Ska]

Maybe, and those crappy poorly designed 700 triggers did very well for many years including the jungles of Vietnam. But hey I cared very little before, then I got interested for a second and now I don’t care at all. Thanks!

[CPJ 2.0]

Were you also going to give me crap for asking and say I’m trolling people?

No. I was going to post links to the videos. KP beat me to it. And, I think he was wrong about you trolling. I dont think you were. You were just ignorant of the videos, other than the sensationalized youtube videos which I totally get not wanting to buy into. (YT is a business, the more outrageous the claims the more views/money they get) Not the ones (security videos) offering proof of firing in the holster without having a finger on the trigger. Which are all over the internet, social media, etc.
You were/are in the minority of people who weren't at least suspicious that SOMETHING was going on....when shown where multiple armed forces, (including one your children served, where an Airman was killed) police agencies, well known training facilities, etc, have forbidden the use of the Sig 320. You simply read the FBI report and dismissed it in light of all of the other supporting evidence. Maybe because of your over 35 years in the industry as a firearms consultant and lead instructor you have more insight into the matter than what folks out of the industry can comprehend.


I still say there is waaaaaaay too many incidents to believe that its not an issue of some kind.

[Wambli Ska]

You’re most probably correct. I found the FBI report a bit too “soft” for my taste and the cop’s explanation outright suspect. But I was really just trying to catch up on this. Some of the videos, after you took the overwhelming surrounding “analysis” by folks I don’t know so by default don’t trust are absolutely compelling so yep, probably a real problem. I was just hoping, since you seemed to be more informed than most, was that you had some links to the raw videos without the benefit of the other 10 hours of self serving YT bullshít like the ones Paul posted since I don’t have the time or patience to watch those. I’m glad you recognized that I’m not trolling anyone. I don’t need some uncalled for crap when I ask a reasonable question.

[CPJ 2.0]

He did include time stamps. And two of them were news reports.

[Wambli Ska]

Not opposed to the videos, it’s the bullshít attitude and uncalled for insult I can do without. I dint pee in his freaking cornflakes.

[CPJ 2.0]

US Marshalls just dropped the 320 also. Well that’s a bad choice of words. They issued an order to stop using them.

[Bigslug]

Maybe, and those crappy poorly designed 700 triggers did very well for many years including the jungles of Vietnam. But hey I cared very little before, then I got interested for a second and now I don’t care at all. Thanks!

Well sure. Put a top 0.01% sniper in charge of the daily maintenance and a trained armorer cadre behind him and the damn thing's usually gonna work. But when your physical trigger is basically a MIM casting (too soft to actually serve as sear material), and your hardened sear is essentially just a 90-degree L-bracket held against the trigger's face with nothing more than pressure from the end of one of the adjustment screws, and you put a million of them in the hands of Cletus and Jethro just itching to turn any screw on the outside of the magic box. . .unpleasant poop will happen. Repeatedly.

This does not make the 700 inherently bad. It does, however, illustrate the difference between it (basically a price-point driven, casual hunter's deer rifle, no matter what sexy military designation you give it) and something specifically "hardened against idiots" like a Mauser 98 or Lee Enfield which you can give to the cooks to use as pikes and clubs and be reasonably assured that it will accidentally kill or incapacitate less of your troops than infections from trench foot or syphilis.

Once upon a time, Zee said something that I liked so much I used it as my signature line for a spell: "Nothing is safe from stupid". The good engineers will assume a certain level of stupid and design for it. The REALLY good engineers will allow an experienced hand to tell them "Nope. You gotta think DUMBER". Have people shot themselves in the foot with Glocks? Sure, but at least Glock can just about always convincingly say that the stupid came from the operator and not their product.

The P320's design and/or manufacture seems to leave the door open wider for the entry of stupid. Past U.S. small arms procurement behavior hints that this may be due to corners cut, processes rushed, and palms greased for the sake of contracts landed in certain districts. Maybe yes, maybe no, but we're at the point where people are getting hurt and killed by stupid with alarming regularity, and it needs a hard looking into.

We've recently had a lot of talk in the news about government "Fraud, Waste, and Abuse". Ummmm. . .maybe look over here guys.