Guns & Outdoors Forum

PFD45 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 5:35 am Damn.
What a straight forward answer.
Pretty cool.

And then there's the other stuff, like getting rid of the finger-grooved frontstrap, changing the proprietary Glock flashlight slot dimension to standard M1913 Picatinny, converting the (I only ever saw one or two break) trigger reset spring (also mostly redundant) into something pretty much totally unbreakable, upgrading the slide stop spring to be equally bomb-proof, putting all of the models that will take G17-pattern mags on the same trigger bar assembly and locking block (there used to be a couple), and making the frame EVEN EASIER to disassemble.

Yeah...I like the Gen 5's A LOT.

The critics complain about grip angle, or how it can't be manicured to fit their hands, or a trigger that they can't manage with their slap-happy technique, but what part of a gun that pretty much never breaks and rarely malfunctions no matter how much you neglect it are you so eager to gripe about? Oh yeah, you can't hit anything and aren't willing to practice even when the ammo's free. Must be the gun's fault.

Rolling this back to the Sig discussion. . .

A lot of the really good designs from history brought a lot of overkill to the party, so that if you had to make it cheaply under press of war, they'd still run - at least safely, if not like a Swiss watch. The Glock is kind of a monument to this: other than the slide and barrel, it's pretty much all MIM, stamped sheet metal, or plastic, but it manages to be a very safe tank in spite of this due to engineering with that in mind.

One of the leading theories with the P320 issues is that it isn't "cheap proof" - at least not from the cheap that it's encountered. You can think of design compromises like a package of sliced Swiss cheese - - USUALLY you can't see through the stack to the other side, but SOMETIMES the holes line up and you can push a problem through them.

Funny. . .I'm referencing Swiss watches and Swiss cheese when discussing problems with a gun from what was originally a Swiss company. . .

Bigslug wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 2:48 am

shotgunshooter3 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 24, 2025 2:23 pm

Bigslug wrote: ↑Thu Jul 24, 2025 4:06 am it's a confidence-inspiring beast. The Gen 5 even more so.

Thread drift here, but what makes the Glock Gen 5 even more confidence inspiring?

The firing pin safety got a nice upgrade to include both a more positive engagement interface with the firing pin and a ramp built onto the trigger mechanism housing which keeps it elevated through the full stroke of the slide. The Gen 1-4 system - at least in .40 cal - had a marked tendency for the two parts to chew on each other under the whiplash of recoil to the point of being able to push the firing pin past the safety on a field-stripped function check once they wore past a certain point. Not a super huge cause for alarm because the FP is still held back by the trigger bar, which has its own failsafe, but it shows that they looked at what was a common wear point and addressed it handily.

I think my 17 is on year 5 and there's still no visible wear where the two parts interface.

Nice, thanks for the answer.

Next time I have my Gen 4 and Gen 5 next to each other I'm going to break them down and check out the differences.

Damn, Sig is doubling down and SUING the state of Washington for banning the 320 from its cop recruit training program.
They are just gluttons for punishment!

https://mynorthwest.com/local/gunmaker- ... ol/4114025

I think Forrest Gump said it best
https://youtu.be/yTUr-aHx1p4?si=y_lKeHjs-lW9tVIy
"Stupid is as stupid does Sir"

PFD45 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 26, 2025 4:12 pm Damn, Sig is doubling down and SUING the state of Washington for banning the 320 from its cop recruit training program.
They are just gluttons for punishment!

https://mynorthwest.com/local/gunmaker- ... ol/4114025

That's pretty laughable, as the next logical step for the Washington agency to take would be to just pull them from general service. I'd be surprised if that wasn't in the works - just moving slower because they have to sort out replacement guns, holsters, transition training, etc... for an entire agency, not just the noobs in training. That promises to be something of a logistical hassle in that there will be competition from other agencies having exactly the same thought process. From there, it's just a matter of selecting for general issue by whatever criteria they choose, and saying "This is what we issue here. These are the choices we offer if you want to carry something personally-purchased. If you want to carry something else, the agency down the road will take your application".

And one wonders what legal leg Sig thinks they have to stand on when about the only entity not saying the product is defective is the entity selling it. They certainly aren't going to get far by saying agencies don't have a choice in what they think is best (safest) for their officers.

I'd also guess that Glock, S&W, FN, HK, etc... are all working three shifts to have stacks of popular duty and plainclothes models ready to go, and are schmoozing Safariland and other makers to juggle production schedules so that stacks of holsters and mag pouches ready to go for the likely replacement models.

I don't think there's any official contemplation of this anywhere, but there is a fair bit of internet discussion about the validity of "Israeli carry" (chamber empty until you need it) as this drama unfolds. If you're locked into a P320 for whatever reason, it may not be the preferred call, but. . .

Safety
Isn’t
Guaranteed

CPJ 2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 26, 2025 8:04 pm Safety
Isn’t
Guaranteed

Brother, you just won the Internet back!

That was funny.

Firearm Safety Rule #1: Treat every firearm like it's a Sig Sauer P320. . .

Damn. . .going to the range is gonna suck now:

Sig P320 for sale.
Trigger hardly broken in.
500 rds. down the barrel.

breamfisher wrote: ↑Sun Jul 27, 2025 4:50 pm Sig P320 for sale.
Trigger hardly broken in.
500 rds. down the barrel.

Ha!

I'm only halfway through this one, but I'm really liking the guy's scientific method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk

My heebie-jeebies about slide-frame fit seem to be well-reasoned. Yay me for being able to identify the smell of poop. . .I guess.

And in the comments we have:

Self
Inflicted
Gunshot

Double down, triple down, quadruple down, etc.


https://youtu.be/OwXfh5HDaog?si=0ybt7ZHyyMnmVCkM

SMH

I've done maybe two quick studies on the Springfield Echelon at a field strip level of tear down before this whole Sig firestorm blew up.

Just repeated that process a couple days ago and looked at the pistol again, but with all of the recent Sig kerfuffle fresh in mind. . .

The key guts are eerily similar to the P320 in terms of where they are and what they are doing, however:

Echelon has a trigger tab safety.

Echelon has a coil-spring powered plunger-type firing pin block.

There's pretty much zero vertical slide to frame play.

It almost seems like Springfield/HS Produkt Croatia looked at the P320 in the immediate aftermath of its earlier "drop discharge" problem, and said "we like this modular fire control block idea - let's do a GOOD version".

I'm still puzzling over this in my mind. . .A lot of people are going to like the Echelon's swappable backstraps that let you change the actual size of the grip (instead of Glock's that only make it bigger); the ambi mag catch; and it's modular optic mounting system that lets you direct mount most of the popular footprints without a plate (except the Holosun 509 and Aimpoint ACRO). These are GOOD features...

. . .but it's still a pre-cocked striker. Supposedly, this allows for a better trigger pull. I'll grant that it ain't bad, but as a former trigger snob who has turned into a pretty vehement NON trigger snob (master your shooting fundamentals and you'll quit caring), it feels little different from all the other spongy striker-fired triggers on the market to me. If you want that "glass rod" quality, it's likely gonna take a narrow sear ledge with a rotating hammer and sear. . .along with someone who knows what they're doing to fit it, and, sorry, you aren't going to get it on a sub-$1,000. mass-market duty pistol.

So, on the one hand, I think better engineering is probably going to be the Echelon's key to success. On the other hand, I think, "You're getting a spongy striker-fired trigger anyway. Why not go with the Glock's massive safety margin of leaving it uncocked until you take up the trigger's pre-travel?" The difference in feel is pretty much indistinguishable. If there's any "feel" advantage to be gained in a striker system, it's going to be in how the striker/sear/trigger bar interface is made, NOT in whether the striker is pre-loaded or not. THAT is going to come down to whether you want a cheap, purely functional combat gun, or something "tuned". The 1911 market has plenty of examples of both extremes, and there's plenty of comparison that goes on with trigger attributes in there as well.

Got Glocks and I'm happy. Guess I really don't care what the market does...

I kinda of get why Sig isn't admitting to the 320 being a problem, because if they do, liability will eat them alive. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if this and the issues coming out with the XM5 (inaccuracy, barrel wear, parts wear, etc.) bankrupts them.

But the PR stuff they're doing in the meantime is stupid.

breamfisher wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 3:45 pm I kinda of get why Sig isn't admitting to the 320 being a problem, because if they do, liability will eat them alive. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if this and the issues coming out with the XM5 (inaccuracy, barrel wear, parts wear, etc.) bankrupts them.

But the PR stuff they're doing in the meantime is stupid.

I agree on all counts

Banned at IDPA events now.

There's some great memes online

Store ammo and firearm separately for maximum safety.