Guns & Outdoors Forum

Now this one is a bit of a puzzle. It is a single barrel muzzle loading gun; overall length 44" with a 27 1/2" barrel. There is a foresight and a three leaf backsight. Sling swivels fitted to stock but no provision for a ramrod. The Proof marks on the gun are only the English ones and just bears a Definitive mark not used after 1925. The bore is smooth and marked as 25 bore which roughly equates to .58". The lock is rather crude and will go off at 'half cock'. The nipple takes a military musket 'top hat' type cap. My theory is that it may be made up of old civil war parts in the U.S. as a target rifle (hence no ramrod) using a .58 rifle barrel and a lock from heavens knows where and quite expertly stocked up. It has then found its way to the U.K. by some means prior to 1925 then been smooth bored to a shotgun and sent for proof; hence the single Definitive mark. My theory but open to offers of others. Other photos can be taken. This one was in my archive but I am looking at the gun now.

I’d LOVE to see the whole thing

Right. I'll get some photos sorted soon and strip the lock out for an internal picture.

I'd like to see the whole gun too

I like the patched in piece around the lock, and how the checkering extends through it.

Mike you use know how to tease! That is an interesting piece!

Additional pictures. I told you it was a crude lock! It does have a half cock position but it will go off from there if the trigger is pressed. The single proof mark tends to indicate that it was probably imported and altered then sent to the Proof House as most gunmakers sent the tube in for provisional proof to see that there were no flaws before they started work on the complete gun. It then need Definitive Proof before sale. Provisional was not mandatory but definitive was. The number 25 is the bore size which is about .58". The number 31 on the breech and the barrel are just to match up the parts. Maybe there are some 30 more like it somewhere that have been made up like this. I think it was made from a rifled barrel because of the sights which a fine sight can be taken. Lack of ramrod tends to show it was not for field use but maybe for target work. The barrel tube is quite thick. It was not uncommon here to get hold of ex-military percussion lock guns and smooth them out for use with shot as a cheap shotgun. Possibly that is what happened to this gun some time ago.

That’s a cool piece!

Whoever did the stock work did a decent job of the chequering. It would work as a slug gun for deer.

I've seen similar lockwork before but never in this configuration. The back action should be somewhat of a clue since they are not as common/popular. BUT, I've never seen the nipple so far forward of the breech. Seems like you'd have to put in a whole lot of powder in there to have the shot in front of the spark no? and why would you ignite the powder column from the front? And what is that line in front of the nipple? Weld?

The bottom of the breech is where the nipple is. The piece behind the nipple appears to be added on to give something to screw the stockwork to. It does make it look ungainly but helps with the balance. It seems to have been made up from various unrelated parts. Any idea what the lock may have come off? There are no names on the gun at all just the serial number and the proof marks.

Sorry, meant to add that the barrel screws into the breech hence the line.

Ok that is really cool info.

I'm trying to break the gun into parts to see if I can reverse engineer. The hammer style appears to be closest to a 1850s-60s Enfield that anything else I've seen out there. American hammers were very different in that era.



The .58 cal barrel could also be of that era from a musket. Can't see the front sight... The stock has me baffled but maybe... Could it be a repurposed later period stock from a military surplus bolt action gun? That would explain having to add an "extension" and the lack of a ramrod channel

Haven't gotten back to the lock but some US outfits sell a modern production lock that outwardly looks very similar though the internal mechanism is of course modern. I'm trying to find what it was derived from.

The trigger and trigger guard have me confused because they appear similar in construction and style to Enfiled of the period but the guard lacks the hole for the sling swivel prevalent in rifles of the time and the trigger has more of a hook.

I might have to spend some time this weekend following google rabbit holes.

Thanks for the puzzle!

The hammer reminds me of the Springfield 1873 Trapdoor set up. Hange the nipple to an enclosed hammer struck firing pin. Very neat how this one fits together

Wambi, thanks for having a look at this puzzle. It just seems to be a gun of many unrelated parts brought together. The crudeness of the lockwork seems odd as I would have thought something better could be found out there. The back sight seems to be one fixed and two flip up leaf sights but neither have any indication of the intended range. The foresight is very fine and a really precise aim can be taken. I can take further photos if that may help. It is something I picked up a while ago but no provenance as to its history. A bit like Johnnie Cash's song 'one piece at a time'.

If you don’t mind, I’d love to see a picture of the front sight? I love puzzles

Extra pictures as requested of the foresight and backsight.

No idea how two pictures of the backsight got in!

That's a cool piece

I'm always amazed at what comes out of that gun room.

I’m not done looking into that lock. Just been a bit busy…. Still very intrigued.

It seems the foresight can be raised a bit by tapping backwards in its dovetail against a ramped rear. The markings on the rear sights make no sense at all. A lot of work went into it and you would think they could find a better lock!