Crowd control/defensive theory

[Zsarvashere]

I am sure everyone has seen the Cincinnatti event. It got me thinking about possible responses and limitations of my edc.

Putting aside all arguments of deescalation, you shouldn't have been there whatever I don't care really I don't. We all know the best way to avoid a fight is not to get into one so that is understood. I am curious about what to do when it goes red in such a circumstance.

I often carry two guns, reloads, up to three knives, a flashlight, lighter, phone, and a watch. All that and I am not sure any of it is up to the circumstances. Obviously one could draw and lay waste, but do you want to be in a Rittehouse situation? In his circumstances there was clear video evidence of justified deadly force. Here...maybe not. I do understand that beating people into unconsciousness is likely justification, but you need to win the PR war after action. Even before this I had been considering adding some pepper spray to my edc. I have been giving thought on where and how to conceal it, and this event is accelerating my addition.

My thoughts

The pepper spray allows me to create a wider dispersal, even as a spectator, rather than immediate death. I can then reasses, retreat, or escalate as necessary.

The negatives of going right to a firearms are the obvious collateral damage, or wasting an innocent during the confusion of the melee.

Going to the pepper spray may lead to assault charges, or lawsuits, but nothing as extreme as above.

Anyone else's thoughts please.

Much appreciated

[Zee]

The disadvantage of pepper spray, is accuracy and subsequent overspray.

[CPJ 2.0]

Pepper spray may incite the crowd that you ain’t spraying. You can’t spray them all.
I’ve watched an unhealthy amount of police shootout videos on YouTube. If a dirtbag is intent on dirt bagging, pepper spray won’t prevent it. Same with tasers, a disturbing amount of times. Sometimes they shrug them off. Rip out the wires. Granted sometimes they are SPECTACULAR! I saw one where homeboy was in a dead sprint, got tased, went stiff as a board and firmly planted his forehead on the pavement. Quite literally like a 2x4 bouncing out of a truck at speed

[Zsarvashere]

Options then? I know I am not squaring up with a mob. I still feel lethal brings more negatives than positives in this circumstance. I am not married to that thought though.

[Chiro1989]

If you think you need to draw a gun, draw the gun, the folks around you and their actions will dictate your reaction at that point.

[Zee]

It’s an option. Obviously. And sometimes it works. And…..sometimes it don’t.
Factor in you yourself getting overspray and now having to deal with not being able to see or breath while trying to defend yourself.

Like anything, there are pros and cons. Having options is a good thing. Knowing when to used them is the deciding moment.

[Diver43]

In regards to pepper spray, when I went through the Academy in Santa Fe, on the day of being qualified to use it, (you get sprayed) the guy next to me laughed and said "I wish I had that with my potatoes this morning" all while I thought i was dying and stumbled into the shower to rinse my face.

[CPJ 2.0]

Best way to avoid a confrontation in a crowd of people, is to stay away from crowds of people. I practice that, with gusto.

[breamfisher]

I guess you're talking about the brawl? I hadn't heard about that until I read this thread.

My thoughts: if I stumble upon that situation, turn around and call 911 at a safe distance. I ain't LE.
If is erupts near me, extract myself from the area, call 911 at a safe distance. I ain't LE.
If I'm getting pounded on: get out of there, somehow. Use whatever means necessary. If I get a safe distance away or while running, call 911.

There's some areas near me that draw huge crowds at Halloween. If something happens there, I would need to be shooting lasers if I'm trying to stop anything. My plan is to extract my family and only use a weapon if needed. I ain't LE.

Point is, I carry to protect me and mine. Period.

[Zee]

I think he was asking, what if he was the one getting beat the hell up by multiple people.
I think.

[GrapeApe]

For the most part, I'm with Bream. I ain't a cop, I don't play one on TV, and I probably didn't stay at a Holiday Inn the night before it's happening.

The mass stabbing in Michigan, and the dude with the gun HELPING to subdue the stabber, I'm okay with that.
Honestly, if I'm armed, I'm fairly certain I'd have a difficult time standing by an watching someone get knifed to death, or a shooter killing random people.

A situation with a, then, neighbor and her drug dealing ex-BF, 30+ years ago proved that to myself. I called 911, and was ready to get involved if it sounded like either of the women, or the child were being hurt/killed. LEOs showed up before that happened. He (leo) saw me, I slowly ID'd myself, placed my pistol and light on the ground and then pointed him to the correct townhouse. He was one I knew, and as I was SLOWLY putting my pistol down it was, "Hey Butch, it's me, and they're next door, where the window's busted out"
I then picked everything up and went back into my townhouse

[Zsarvashere]

I think he was asking, what if he was the one getting beat the hell up by multiple people.
I think.

Pretty much 95% this.

[breamfisher]

Then try to get the hell out of there, don't let my weapons get taken... depending on distance, pepper spray may incapacitate you as much as them.

LE trains on how to respond if sprayed or oversprayed. Both with gun and other measures. Depending on the agency, it may even be useful.

[CPJ 2.0]

I think he was asking, what if he was the one getting beat the hell up by multiple people.
I think.

I’m blasting. My life is worth more than the thugs, obviously, there’s no question there. Could I live with accidentally hitting a random person who wasn’t involved? Yep. Wouldn’t like it, but me and mine wouldn’t be dead. I’d know *I* wasn’t the one who caused their death.

[Zsarvashere]

Yeah. They tried to get away. Didn't work too well.

[Zsarvashere]

I’m blasting. My life is worth more than the thugs, obviously, there’s no question there. Could I live with accidentally hitting a random person who wasn’t involved? Yep. Wouldn’t like it, but me and mine wouldn’t be dead. I’d know *I* wasn’t the one who caused their death.

All things being equal with no other choice I am likely doing the same. However I am looking for a better option under the circumstances. Maybe it doesn't exist.

[breamfisher]

While a different situation, Shugart and Gordon at Mogadishu are an example of doing it all right and still losing your life.

Sometimes you don't get to walk away. And your plan will go right down the toilet when things happen because the bad guy(s) get one or more votes. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have a plan, just be prepared for things to go sideways.

[Zsarvashere]

Mike Tyson said everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

[Zee]

Yeah. They tried to get away. Didn't work too well.

He was at a great disadvantage and she was blindsided Old man and then a drunk(?) chick. Against young, better shape assailants. That was a lose, lose.

I would say, it was a bad decision to remain at that location due to the environment. Prior to the incident. When the hair starts standing up, I’m bailing.
If he couldn’t see the tensions rising prior to the incident…….Darwin.

Outside of that, had the incident occurred without precursors, and I was the victim being assaulted by multiple assailants………….i would draw, when the time presented. Drawing while getting stomped and unable to defend is a bad idea because you will likely lose your weapon. But, working towards a defensive position and planning my next move (drawing) would be the mission. Curling up and just taking it, not so much.
Situational awareness, the best defense? No be there. Beyond that, training and planning. Without it, you’re a sheep. That’s just the cold hard truth. If you don’t want to be a victim……….don't be. The choice is yours. Train. Plan. Execute.

[Zsarvashere]

Yeah. They tried to get away. Didn't work too well.

I would say, it was a bad decision to remain at that location due to the environment. Prior to the incident. When the hair starts standing up, I’m bailing.
If he couldn’t see the tensions rising prior to the incident…….Darwin.

Absolutely! Any time my spidey sense goes off I listen. Thanks for thoughts on the rest.

[Wambli Ska]

Certainly rolling into a ball and taking an asskicking laying on the ground is NOT my preferred game plan. At least I know the direction knees don’t bend. Someone smart here told me a long time ago to buy Greys Anatomy and learn where all the gushy bits are and to bend things in directions in which they are not meant to bend. Simple enough recipe.

So if a gun is not an option then fight like the third monkey on the boarding ramp to the ark and damage as many as I can while at it.

[Bigslug]

You'd better know if YOU can function under pepper spray before you consider carrying the stuff.

Plenty of cops won't carry it for the simple reason they know it will wipe THEM out. . .meanwhile there are plenty of human cockroaches who routinely compare it to their favorite taco sauce.

And Bream hits it pretty well - some days the bear wins.

You can "what if" this stuff to death. I think it goes hand in hand with the hand-wringing often applied to the what-if of your ammo "overpenetrating" - -to the point of selecting an ineffective round. It's misplaced logic. You have to (A.) articulate proper use of lethal force, and you (B.) also have to remain alive today to be crucified in the court of public opinion tomorrow. If you weren't totally stupid in your reasons for being there in the first place, the priority should be to do what you gotta do first, and deal with any fallout after.

Having your training documented and your legal defense lined up beforehand would be my starting point.

[Wambli Ska]

Having your training documented and your legal defense lined up beforehand would be my starting point.

Absolutely freaking essential. My USCCA card is in my wallet at all times and their number is on speed dial. They even have the script on the back of the card so when the SHTF you don't have to even THINK!

Call 911: I was attacked and I had to defend myself, send police and an ambulance.

HANG UP!!!

Call the USCCA Crisis Hotline and get a lawyer on the way with bail money if needed right NOW.

When the cops arrive: "I will cooperate fully with the investigation as soon as my lawyer arrives."

AND your training is documented online!

Worked for them for two years (basically because it was fun), saw this play out for real several times, will NEVER be without the card.

[Justsomedude]

Having lived in an offshoot of Cincinnati all of my life, I've managed to stay the hell away from downtown for most of it. There are areas where if I was suicidal, I could go for a stroll down the street and am guaranteed to end up in the morgue before sunrise. I stay away from certain demographics because well,.... pattern recognition. As to your question. IF I somehow got in that dilemma I'd be pulling a gun. If am indictment dropped because of the outcome I'd just have to take a midnight stroll through one of the previously mentioned neighborhoods before a court date. Too lazy to deal with the clownshow we call a justice system.

[Jay]

There’s some things to know about OC spray that might not immediately come to mind. Some already mentioned.

Gotta think about the spray pattern. Stream, cone, fog, etc. Stream is very target specific and primarily affects the eyes. Respiratory is a secondary effect. You get more range, but have to be accurate for it to be effective. Idea is to hit the eyes. Not as much cross contamination risk. Cone affects eyes and respiratory. Shorter range than stream, longer range than fog, still fairly target specific. Idea is to hit the face. More cross contamination. Fog is short range and primarily affects respiratory. Generally better for confined areas, area denial and crowds. Lots of cross contamination.

The heat level of the product can also be a factor. Some are hotter than others. Plays a part in effectiveness.

Flammability is another consideration. Some are flammable, using alcohol for a carrier or isobutane as the propellant. If the spray isn’t hot enough, the person being doused could end up being much hotter…

A small percentage of the population is immune to its effects. I’ve seen it. Most times if it’s not effective, it’s poor accuracy. Not effectively hitting the intended target area. But I’ve seen people take multiple hits to the eyes and have no effect. I’ve also been sprayed 3 times. Twice on purpose, once on accident. I sprayed myself… I was spraying someone almost straight up. It rained back down on me. I got the guy I was spraying. As well as myself… I worked through it. Didn’t have much of a choice. The guy who was throwing stuff at me from upstairs decided to stop doing that.

Tasers have mostly phased out spray. But spray is still good for some stuff. Down side to it for LE stuff is, most of the time after you spray someone, you have to then put them in your vehicle or otherwise have to be around them and deal with the side effects of it until you can get rid of that person. And, you have to deal with a guy who was the toughest guy on the planet a minute ago, now yelling, crying and getting slobber and snot all over you..

Tasers affect the CNS. There is no immunity. Ineffective Taser hits are caused by not enough distance between the darts, or the darts not making good enough contact with the body. If the darts hit clothing, but don’t contact the body, it might have some effect. But not the full effect. Same if the darts are too close together, being deployed without enough distance to let them spread. The nice thing about Tasers is, there’s no after effect. When the lightning ride is done, it’s over.