Guns & Outdoors Forum

Saw the phrase mentioned in another thread here today. We’ve discussed it in the past on a previous forum. But, this is a new house. So, let’s reopen the concept of “Defensive Distance”.

Obviously, we know the minimum being hands on distance. But, what do you consider a maximum practical/applicable daily life distance in which you feel capable/comfortable defending you and yours and maybe others.

What distances do you practice defensive application of a carry firearm? Does it match or exceed what you perceive as a realistic and foreseeable defensive situation?

We set our own expectations and parameters. What are yours?

I’ve been toying with 50 yards with the Holosun in the 48. Easy shot with the WC and bout max distance in my old church.

For most instances 21 feet minimum. As a civilian, maybe 25 yards

Personal space, 10 yds. I practice 10-25 yds with the pistols, some 50 yd shots to see what happens with a particular gun.

Most of my draw-and-hammer-stuff-quickly practice is done inside of 25 yards, but I do a good bit of play on gallon and smaller jugs to as far as 100. The whole notion of "confidence level" depends a great deal on the nature of the shot, as the classic "hostage taker" is a very different proposal from the active shooter in the relative clear.

The red dots are really becoming the difference for me, since, after decades of developing grip and trigger control fundamentals, my eyeballs are fossilizing in my skull, and the visual component is now the bigger part of the puzzle. Really want to put one on my GP-100 - - just need to find the right mount.

Chiro1989 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:25 am Personal space, 10 yds. I practice 10-25 yds with the pistols, some 50 yd shots to see what happens with a particular gun.

I agree. I also practice out to 25 yards because if I'm accurate at that distance, closer is no problem. I can shoot accurately inside 3 yards from the hip because I practice that too.

The old “common knowledge” of 3-seconds, 3-yards, 3-shots has really gone to the wayside with how many videos and first hand accounts of shootings happening at ‘across the sanctuary’ and ‘across the food court’ distances. What it means is that a defensive distance should now be situation dependent… which dictates you should train for areas that you commonly visit.

Spend a lot of time in open areas? You should at least attempt shots at those distances with your carry gun.

bullsi1911 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:08 pm The old “common knowledge” of 3-seconds, 3-yards, 3-shots has really gone to the wayside with how many videos and first hand accounts of shootings happening at ‘across the sanctuary’ and ‘across the food court’ distances. What it means is that a defensive distance should now be situation dependent… which dictates you should train for areas that you commonly visit.

Spend a lot of time in open areas? You should at least attempt shots at those distances with your carry gun.

This. Plus the benefit of training at distance is the close in stuff becomes easy.

bullsi1911 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:08 pm The old “common knowledge” of 3-seconds, 3-yards, 3-shots has really gone to the wayside with how many videos and first hand accounts of shootings happening at ‘across the sanctuary’ and ‘across the food court’ distances. What it means is that a defensive distance should now be situation dependent… which dictates you should train for areas that you commonly visit.

Spend a lot of time in open areas? You should at least attempt shots at those distances with your carry gun.

Problem is, the average is probably 3.5 seconds, 5 yards, 3.2 shots, because that's how averages work.

I still see a lot of pocket revolvers and pistols (think J-frame and LCP) being sold because "that's what you'll most likely need."

I also see lots of trainers advocating something Glock 19-sized because of greater capabilities.

We're in an interesting place.

breamfisher wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:52 pm

bullsi1911 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:08 pm The old “common knowledge” of 3-seconds, 3-yards, 3-shots has really gone to the wayside with how many videos and first hand accounts of shootings happening at ‘across the sanctuary’ and ‘across the food court’ distances. What it means is that a defensive distance should now be situation dependent… which dictates you should train for areas that you commonly visit.

Spend a lot of time in open areas? You should at least attempt shots at those distances with your carry gun.

Problem is, the average is probably 3.5 seconds, 5 yards, 3.2 shots, because that's how averages work.

I still see a lot of pocket revolvers and pistols (think J-frame and LCP) being sold because "that's what you'll most likely need."

I also see lots of trainers advocating something Glock 19-sized because of greater capabilities.

We're in an interesting place.

We are. In most cases you can today carry a nice pistol with a 12-15 round capacity and a quick reload and concealed it just as easy (or easier) than a J frame or the old “mouse guns”. So why not carry the extra insurance.

Plus as we see in the news every day, mob attacks are happening everywhere and just like lotto, unlikely, but it COULD be you.

Zee wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:29 am ...
What distances do you practice defensive application of a carry firearm? Does it match or exceed what you perceive as a realistic and foreseeable defensive situation?
...

I set up random targets from 3 to 50 yards. Various shooting sports routinely have targets at 5 to 35 yards.

For fun, I sometimes launch rounds at 200 yards at some large ~ 2ft by 2ft steel rifle targets (they look like the standard steel ram rifle targets - never actually measured them). I occasionally get hits on steel but usually it's very close misses (standing offhand). All using my various CC firearms not some fancy, scoped, tricked out space gun, just iron sites for me. I'm a dinosaur... At least until my eyes start going south. Some of my CC guns are more accurate than others so my results vary but I keep trying.

I like to think practicing unknown distance and not becoming complacent with fixed known distances will help me if the need should arise.

bullsi1911 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:08 pm The old “common knowledge” of 3-seconds, 3-yards, 3-shots has really gone to the wayside with how many videos and first hand accounts of shootings happening at ‘across the sanctuary’ and ‘across the food court’ distances. What it means is that a defensive distance should now be situation dependent… which dictates you should train for areas that you commonly visit.

The thing is that isnt the "old" common knowledge. That is pretty recent, say last 25-30 years. Prior to that, the std was to hit a man sized target at 50 and shoot competently at 25, all offhand.

My opinion as to why it dropped was gun rags and "trainers". The gun rag wants to sell guns so it touts the people who are paying them as "excellent at defense distance" and writes it up as to what it can do at 7 yards. "Trainers" took that and since it is a lot easier to get paid if everyone excels committed to mediocrity and cashed the checks, and the affiliated range is 15 yards long, that is the max they train to reminding students that the avg is half that. Then the students want to read about what they are doing and the gun rags get to sell them whatever in the articles and the "trainers" get to make easy money.

3 or 7 yards was never realistic as the only distance. Cops are engaged closer for a simple reason, they are closing with their target or are already in fisticuffs range when the situation goes sideways. Pull up the vids of police shootings. They may be 30 yards away to start, but have closed to 3 while yelling before the first bang. As a armed citizen, you probably shouldn't be continually closing with your target sitting in his car.

I dont spend a boatload of time with handguns, and I dont spend that time exclusively at 50 yards, but I feel pretty comfortable that I can make hits (even with the PF9) at 50 if I had to, and positive I can make hits at 25. With the 1911 in a real sideways situation I would not be adverse to engage at 100 simply because I can make hits if needed.
So in answer to the OP. 50 yards is what I consider to be the max reasonable offhand range for my current carry pistols on a center mass sized target.

In my old range I actually took down all the yardage markers from the pistol ranges I trained in. I did not want to know and I did not want my students to get used to shooting at X range or even worry about it. With new students I just kept moving them farther away with every drill as they gained in competency and confidence. Most were shocked when I finally pointed out how far away they were hitting targets accurately when they didn’t know.

Another aspect that many don’t pay attention to, I made sure they (and me) shot from uneven ground frequently. You never know what will be under your feet when the poop hits the fan.

I make it a point to be able to make head shots with all my defensive pistols. Typically, all my guns will dump a mag full into the head standing off hand at 15 yards. At 25, I shoot only center mass. But often practice at 50.

I'm a civilian, I was trained in the military many years ago, but I don't believe most of that is effective in my life today. My thought is, the most likely SD situation I'll find myself in is a robbery, mugging or carjacking. That said, my max range will be under 25 yards. I have no business getting into a gun fight or shooting at a fleeing target. My carry pieces are a Walther style pistol and a pocket pistol. It has been my experience and those of my associates that the fool or addict will flee when they're confronted by an armed victim. 15 to 25 yards is where I practice.

Diver43 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 3:13 am For most instances 21 feet minimum. As a civilian, maybe 25 yards

^ This.