Guns & Outdoors Forum

For classic levels gun lovers: https://outlawswinchesters.jouwweb.nl/winchester-1876

Oliver Winchester took the quality of his guns seriously. Here’s an excerpt from the article:

“The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Streammagazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage.”

Now here’s a man who took a challenge seriously

Well there you go, give those Ruger loads a try

sakodude wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:07 am Well there you go, give those Ruger loads a try

I’m good where I’m headed. I should reach 1,500 fps at about 22,000 PSI. Action has been proofed to 28,000.

I've run across that story. Not impossible to break good guns with black powder, but it takes some doing. Another favorite of mine regarding the strength of toggle link actions regards the British Vickers version of the Maxim machine gun:

In the 1960's, after the changeover to the 7.62x51 NATO standard, the Brits had Vickers guns, a LOT of leftover .303, and nothing to do with it. The individuals involved decided to "test the Vickers legend" by building one up to where it gauged out as a new firearm, and over the course of a week, put SEVEN MILLION ROUNDS through it, pausing to remove brass from the firing line with snow shovels, refill the water jacket, and change out barrels - probably every 10,000 to 20,000 rounds. Lube was probably squirted in from time to time, but I don't have all the info handy.

At the end of it all, the gun still gauged out as a serviceable weapon. How about those puny toggle links? (EDIT TO ADD: What would we give for seven million rounds of new MKVII .303 today?)

The '76 Centennials are definitely cool, but I've always been puzzled by why, if they were just scaling up the '73, they didn't just scale it a little bigger so that the .45-70 Government service cartridge would fit. With that action's inline feeding, it would have only been a simple matter of a little more length.

I think it was Winchester’s sensibility for aesthetics in his guns. The ‘76 receiver is long as it is and sizing to 45-70 gov 405 load would have added another 1/2”+ of steel, lever throw, bolt travel etc.

Besides from a marketing perspective, it was Hey! New cartridges

Which is why Browning came up with the 1886 design for the .45-70.

LMLarsen wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:50 am Which is why Browning came up with the 1886 design for the .45-70.

Yep