ICE dumps the SigP320/M18

[Zee]

Those are good.

[Bigslug]

Sig Drop.jpeg (17.74 KiB) Viewed 2853 times

[CPJ 2.0]

IMG_3987.jpeg (811.83 KiB) Viewed 2837 times

[CPJ 2.0]

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[Zsarvashere]

Sig Drop.jpeg

This is my favorite

[breamfisher]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/jur ... 00468.html

Federal jury finds P320 defective designed, but officer who carried it gets no compensation because he should have known better, I guess because he had heard of other instances.

[CPJ 2.0]

“The bullet impacted Officer Desrosiers’s scrotum, left inner thigh, and exited his right knee causing devastating injury.”



Sig still won’t own up. That’s nuts.

[GrapeApe]

Yeah, dude stuffed the pistol behind his belt

Runkle shows the court documents. The decision starts around the 8:57 mark
https://youtu.be/dRfu4v7Ia-w?si=64-83LtA0HahA-hG&t=535

[Bigslug]

Yeah, dude stuffed the pistol behind his belt

Runkle shows the court documents. The decision starts around the 8:57 mark
https://youtu.be/dRfu4v7Ia-w?si=64-83LtA0HahA-hG&t=535

Nobody's going to say that stuffing a pistol with these basic design features was smart, but I don't know that I would pile on with saying the officer "shoulda known better", just based a little bit on timeline.

Incident occurred in 2019, well before the current tales of P320's going off in full-blown retention duty holsters entered the limelight.

The officer was a 24 year veteran at the time, which would have made him a newbie cop in the middle 1990's, when there were still a lot of DA/SA systems in common use. This would also have given him overlap with a lot of late-career '70's and '80's cops who would have stuffed those, as well as Colt and S&W revolvers down their pants with zero cause for concern.

Don't know what he carried prior, just saying that environment may have counted for a lot in leading to that particular kaboom.

[Zsarvashere]

This is really so much worse every day it seems. With this Sig issue being so bad, and if the rumors are true regarding the M7, maybe it is time to start looking at all who have been involved in the selection process. I mean DoD and civil side of things. Start looking for where the money is going. Who got what jobs/board positions upon retirement. What a poop if our war fighters are being handed absolute garbage so some general and a senator and who knows who else is making a fortune. I know it happens, but is this worse or is it just info is more readily available?

[Bigslug]

This is really so much worse every day it seems. With this Sig issue being so bad, and if the rumors are true regarding the M7, maybe it is time to start looking at all who have been involved in the selection process. I mean DoD and civil side of things. Start looking for where the money is going. Who got what jobs/board positions upon retirement. . .

You can probably find an e-book version of it somewhere online: William H. Hallahan's Misfire: The History of How America's Small Arms Have Failed Our Military published in 1994. It discusses similar shenanigans going all the way back to the Washington administration. Well worth your time. I don't recall if it discusses the M60 or Beretta M9. It gets deep into the Vietnam-era, largely Pentagon-induced M16 teething problems , but obviously doesn't cover the necessary later improvements that were made to the platform in the M4 era.

Short version: We've gotten it wrong a lot more often than we've gotten it right. We appear to have gotten this one REALLY wrong.

We often hear that John Browning was a hero for providing his designs to the U.S. military. What's usually overlooked is that he was one of the few domestic arms designers that didn't get sick of trying to deal with the U.S. based nonsense and ultimately sold their mechanisms to the Europe and elsewhere. Oh yeah. . .he did too. FN pretty much owes him their entire existence.

This P320 drama may well be the ultimate capstone. I am REALLY hoping somebody digs deep and writes a definitive book on it - though they may well develop a severe case of Jeff Epstein Syndrome in attempting it.

[GrapeApe]

Serious question., is all this going to be "fatal" to Sig inthe US market?
I think the damage is going to be serious, but not fatal.

[Bigslug]

Serious question., is all this going to be "fatal" to Sig inthe US market?
I think the damage is going to be serious, but not fatal.

Remains to be seen. Ford did survive the Pinto, after all. They've sunk A LOT of their capital into the P320 / P365 concept which allows them to be lazy by stretching or shortening the grip and slide, porting some and not others, making some lower shells out of polymer and some out of metal - but all basically the same gun. Unfortunately for them, that's the great millstone around their neck right now.

Sig built their reputation in this country on the back of the P220 series. Good guns - if you like that sort of thing - but DA/SA is a definite "has been". Much of the P320's initial appeal was a hook dangled on the line of that reputation

I doubt 1911's will sustain them. Not when there are purists that say "External extractor and Series 80 parts? You may be many things, maybe even a good firearm, but you are NOT a 1911". Their 2011 effort is hitting the market. . .now. Will it get tarred by the P320 brush? Certainly in the minds of some.

AR-15's? It's hard to stand out as an individual when you're a corn stalk standing in a vast field of corn. And now it's a stalk of corn made by "THAT" company.

I think how this whole scandal proceeds into the military contract will have much say in this. There is of course the whole swamp-stink mess of the thing's adoption in the first place. We may get a legitimate clean up, although it may just end up stinking more.

The 40 minute Wyoming Gun Project video that made a creditable effort into what might be going on contained one thing that was almost nostalgic for me, as it may have been for other long-timers from the old forum: the presenter brought out a Taurus polymer/striker autoloader and pointed out that it had better slide/frame tolerances than the P320. Taurus had some really crappy warranty practices in the early 2000's that pretty much burned any bridge they might have ever had to me regardless of what they have done since or might do going forward. Similarly, Sig does not seem to be conducting themselves particularly well right now. . .and TAURUS may be making a better gun - or at least one less likely to blow your nuts off. I wish Big Chief were still here to comment.

[breamfisher]

https://youtu.be/Dxj85puRDZw?si=08YS7GCTTkSusnVI

Wyoming Gun Project still doing work. Seems the striker safety is fully disengaged as soon as you take out any trigger pretravel. Some don't like that, but what's different about that and a pre-Series 80 1911? Am I missing something?

[GrapeApe]

A hammer, halfcock notch and over 110 years to "work the kinks" out???

[CPJ 2.0]

Sig wants to block a redacted document that’s been un-redacted with the help of Adobe. Because it contains “sensitive design information “.

And then admitting it can go off. And giving a percentage of times it can go off.

Longer video, but you can always set the speed up to 1.5 to save time.



https://youtu.be/a49bqJkAeL4?si=CSGSw6TXA7Ju1wFN

[GrapeApe]

AIM Surplus can apparently read the writing on the wall...

They have aftermarket P320 Compact gold TiN barrels on sale for $19.95



edited to add a link:
https://aimsurplus.com/products/aimsurp ... barrel-tin

[Bigslug]

https://youtu.be/Dxj85puRDZw?si=08YS7GCTTkSusnVI

Wyoming Gun Project still doing work. Seems the striker safety is fully disengaged as soon as you take out any trigger pretravel. Some don't like that, but what's different about that and a pre-Series 80 1911? Am I missing something?

A 1911's safety locks the sear into the hammer. Like, as in, can't separate and release. OK. Let's say it's off. . .

There's still a grip safety blocking the trigger. Drop the gun on its backside all you want - the trigger may try to inertia rearward like the early P320, but the grip safety is inertia-ing rearward too. . .right into its path. Also, you can't do trigger pre-travel without gripping the back of the gun.

The spring on a 1911's firing pin pushes it BACKWARDS. So that it has to be overcome by a full-power strike from the hammer.

A 1911's hammer and sear engagement are ALL in the frame, and aren't influenced AT ALL by a crappy slide-to-frame fit.

Now if we were talking about a Series-80. . .that firing pin safety gets lifted out of the path of the firing pin in the overtravel phase - that is AFTER the hammer has started falling, but BEFORE it lands.

In short, much more between you and a kaboom.

John Browning was half the equation, but he also had a veteran John Thompson telling him all the STUPID things that operators might do to his guns.

How to visualize this Sig thing. . .

This Sig might be a little like a Mauser 98 with a military two-stage trigger. . .only it has no firing pin retracting and locking flag safety. . . and the spring that pushes back against the first stage of the trigger might be defective so it's not reliably returning the trigger forward. . .and the bolt raceway is so loose that the striker inside the bolt can be lifted upward off the sear surface on the trigger. I wouldn't carry a fully functional '98 chambered with the safety off, let alone one in the above condition. Yet that may be the P320's normal operating state, or at least it may not take much to get one into it. Spooky stuff - but we still don't know.

[breamfisher]

I realized I worded my question poorly.

I should have said, "Some want the striker safety to be disengaged later in the trigger pull."

Seems to me like the P320 is set up kinda like a 1911 trigger with no mechanical safeties, once all slack is taken out of the trigger. Which is definitely running on the ragged edge of prudence for a duty/military handgun, IF slide to frame fit wasn't so bad and didn't have an effect on the durned thing going off.

[Zsarvashere]

I think the guy blowing his testicle off has done it for me. At this point I don't care about anything else. I will never buy a SIG firearm. They may have completed their work in this world but I would like to have them with me to the end.

[Bigslug]

I think the guy blowing his testicle off has done it for me. At this point I don't care about anything else. I will never buy a SIG firearm. They may have completed their work in this world but I would like to have them with me to the end.

Shot
In
Genitals?

Sterilization
Is
Guaranteed?

Seriously
Infamous
Gunshots?

[Wambli Ska]

I guess everyone in the gun world has all forgotten that "Glock Leg" was a thing when PDs decided to drop revolvers in favor of Glocks. There was a time when the statistic of "Cops shot with their own gun" was almost entirely made up of cops pushing a loaded Glock into their holster, pants, etc with their fingers inside the trigger guard or other similar user errors. This happened a WHOLE lot, personally knew tw LEOs that want around bragging because they are retired after being shot on the job, only to find out later they shot themselves. And yet Glock is still around and now lauded as one of the ultimate fighting guns in the world.

I'll just sit here with some pop-corn and watch the soap opera unfold until something of substance shows up...

[CPJ 2.0]

I guess everyone in the gun world has all forgotten that "Glock Leg" was a thing when PDs decided to drop revolvers in favor of Glocks. There was a time when the statistic of "Cops shot with their own gun" was almost entirely made up of cops pushing a loaded Glock into their holster, pants, etc with their fingers inside the trigger guard or other similar user errors. This happened a WHOLE lot, personally knew tw LEOs that want around bragging because they are retired after being shot on the job, only to find out later they shot themselves. And yet Glock is still around and now lauded as one of the ultimate fighting guns in the world.

I'll just sit here with some pop-corn and watch the soap opera unfold until something of substance shows up...

There’s an enormous difference in shoving a gun in a holster with your finger on the trigger causing it to fire, and a gun just going off because it was jiggled wrong.

One is operator error, the other a (potential but most likely) manufacturing/design defect.

[Wambli Ska]

I certainly not trying to be contentious but I tend to be REALLY thorough when it comes to this type of stuff and do my own research and make up my own mind.

So I just downloaded the whole document and carefully read ALL OF IT, and then read it again. The first thing that struck me was that while SIG replaced the triggers in the original guns it was the PD Armorer (recently certified on the P320) who replaced the trigger unit on THIS gun, Ok, just something to note.

I then read the whole part about slide movement while pressing the trigger, so went in my bedroom and unloaded my 48X, My 43X and my Kahr. ALL of them show some slide movement while the trigger is being pressed, probably inherent to all striker fired pistols, but hey, Note #2. The measure movement in the test gun was in the .00x". That's almost imperceptible.

Next thing of note on the report is that every "failure" required manipulation in the holster..... SUBSTANTIAL manipulation of mechanical components, not just a jiggle.

And last, The officer was screwing around with his keys while holstering the weapon RIGHT after performing 3 "presentation drills" in the squad room and the gun went off. If he personally caused it by screwing around with the keys WHILE holstering the gun he would LIE and swear that was not the case until St. Peter questioned him in the afterlife. The (unexplained) trigger guard abrasions that were observed on the gun (shown in pictures on the report) are noted as follows: "During this test it was observed that the keys caused an abrasion on the trigger guard near the area of the abrasion seen on the weapon when it arrived (Figure 13)." and they were interesting enough for the FBI that they tested if the keys could fire the gun while inserted or inserting into the holster and the answer is YES. That part of the report seems like everyone is leaving out.

So in summary, enough stuff in the actual report for me to think, MAYBE, some dude is just covering his ass after doing something STUPID and looking for a settlement from SIG. Maybe...

The ARMY currently has 500,000 P320s in their inventory today and none went off by themselves. I'm willing to keep an open mind. Oh, this and and my trust in today's FBI AND most police departments is "tenuous" at best.

[Wambli Ska]

And again, I have ZERO skin in the game and couldn't care less what gun ICE carries.