Not in book reloading assistance

[Diver43]

I recently procured a Ruger SP101 .357mag w/3inch barrel. On the barrel it is marked 125Gr Bullet. I didn't give it much thought as back in the day 125gr hollow points were the man stopper in .357 mag. Fast forward I learned the gun was built in 1991 when Ruger stretched the cylinder of a .38spcl to make a magnum. the 125Gr bullet was marked because anything longer protrudes from the cylinder and binds so it can not rotate.
What Ruger probably should have done was mark the barrel COAL not to exceed 1.57 inches.

As discussed in another thread modern AI isn't all bad and a useful tool, but and the but is loud, I do not totally trust it. My go to powder for .357 mag has been H110 powder with a Hornady 158gr XLT bullet. Nowhere could I find a recipe for a COAL of say 1.56 to allow a chance of bullet jump. I turned to AI and it said in no uncertain can a bullet be seated that deep with that powder. When I asked to suggest a better alternative to meet the COAL criteria, this is what it came up with:

.357 Magnum
Standard Small Pistol Primer
Alliant 2400 Powder 11.5 gr up to 13.0 gr
COAL 1.56 inches.

Alliant book says charge of 14.8 with a COAL of 1.575

To me that seems like a safe load, but in the few years I have been making my own I have always stayed within book of published powders and amounts.

Some folks on here have made more thousands of rounds than I have batches of ten. and some have pushed thresholds in each direction looking for quiet soft shooting to blasters from moth ends. Does it look to anyone that I may produce a squib or worse cause damage to it or me?

[Jay]

Use whatever powder you want and reduce your powder charge and work up slowly. Use H110 if that’s what you have and like. It seems like you’re looking at 2-3 hundredths of an inch shorter than book OAL. Not a huge difference. If you have an old piece of brass, trim it to length and make a dummy round, slowly seating the bullet deeper until you get it just to the point it functions reliably. Then measure it and get your actual max OAL. Id put a little crimp on your loaded rounds just to make sure they don’t pull and jamb up the cylinder when you shoot it. Start around midpoint of published load data and work up a little at a time until you’re happy with accuracy and point of impact and call it good. That’s what I’d do.

[CPJ 2.0]

Or, just get some 125 grain bullets.

[Diver43]

Or, just get some 125 grain bullets.

While that is the simple answer most list a longer COAL

[Elk Creek]

I never run the ragged edge of loads. I’d load 125’s and be happy then some heavy weight 38’s for giggles

[Freezer]

What about 38 plus p loads?

[Bigslug]

Diver,

The trick for you to consider is to dive into Elmer Keith's / Smith & Wesson's ".38 Heavy Duty" load concept. These were basically the "pre-magnums" that weren't safe for use in guns of older, weaker construction, and are basically why we have a .357 case that can't be physically loaded into those gun. That data can be a little tricky to find as it has disappeared from the manuals for obvious reasons, and I've had some trouble tracking a powder that is listed as both a top end .38 and bottom end .357 fuel - probably for similar reasons. I can start tracking for you later today, but 2400 and Unique were the ideal choices for that. H110 may not be suitable as that one's known for being a "full case" powder.

You're going to have COAL troubles with .357 cases on a short cylinder, mainly because of cannelure location on most of the bullets.

What's the load's mission?

[Diver43]

Diver,

The trick for you to consider is to dive into Elmer Keith's / Smith & Wesson's ".38 Heavy Duty" load concept. These were basically the "pre-magnums" that weren't safe for use in guns of older, weaker construction, and are basically why we have a .357 case that can't be physically loaded into those gun. That data can be a little tricky to find as it has disappeared from the manuals for obvious reasons, and I've had some trouble tracking a powder that is listed as both a top end .38 and bottom end .357 fuel - probably for similar reasons. I can start tracking for you later today, but 2400 and Unique were the ideal choices for that. H110 may not be suitable as that one's known for being a "full case" powder.

You're going to have COAL troubles with .357 cases on a short cylinder, mainly because of cannelure location on most of the bullets.

What's the load's mission?

Mission is to ride on my right hip while fishing the mouth of the Blackwater river right where it empties into the Gulf and surrounding areas. There have been some issues with people being harassed by a group of semi homeless and druggies in the area. Two young boys had their fishing gear and cooler taken away. I always have my P3AT in my pocket, but feel in this instance more is better. One was caught while trying to argue with a pawn shop as the boy had Dads Shimano Stella reel taken from him. Seems the low life knew what it was and wanted more than 100 bucks for it. Anyways, I just have always "liked" that bullet and have faith in it as it killed a large hog from 10 feet away .

[Diver43]

Just tried cycling 5 rounds of Cor Bon 125gr DPX and had no hang ups. After measuring it seems each round is right over the 1.57 mark 1.571-1.576 and all cycled and didn't bind the cylinder.

[CPJ 2.0]

Diver,

The trick for you to consider is to dive into Elmer Keith's / Smith & Wesson's ".38 Heavy Duty" load concept. These were basically the "pre-magnums" that weren't safe for use in guns of older, weaker construction, and are basically why we have a .357 case that can't be physically loaded into those gun. That data can be a little tricky to find as it has disappeared from the manuals for obvious reasons, and I've had some trouble tracking a powder that is listed as both a top end .38 and bottom end .357 fuel - probably for similar reasons. I can start tracking for you later today, but 2400 and Unique were the ideal choices for that. H110 may not be suitable as that one's known for being a "full case" powder.

You're going to have COAL troubles with .357 cases on a short cylinder, mainly because of cannelure location on most of the bullets.

What's the load's mission?

Mission is to ride on my right hip while fishing the mouth of the Blackwater river right where it empties into the Gulf and surrounding areas. There have been some issues with people being harassed by a group of semi homeless and druggies in the area. Two young boys had their fishing gear and cooler taken away. I always have my P3AT in my pocket, but feel in this instance more is better. One was caught while trying to argue with a pawn shop as the boy had Dads Shimano Stella reel taken from him. Seems the low life knew what it was and wanted more than 100 bucks for it. Anyways, I just have always "liked" that bullet and have faith in it as it killed a large hog from 10 feet away .

For me, that mission says I need more than 5 rounds.

[Diver43]

More than 5 rounds? Well maybe. But then there is a shotgun in the back seat of the truck which is usually 50 feet or less away. Out walking about i agree

[Bigslug]

Mission is to ride on my right hip while fishing the mouth of the Blackwater river right where it empties into the Gulf and surrounding areas. There have been some issues with people being harassed by a group of semi homeless and druggies in the area. Two young boys had their fishing gear and cooler taken away. I always have my P3AT in my pocket, but feel in this instance more is better. One was caught while trying to argue with a pawn shop as the boy had Dads Shimano Stella reel taken from him. Seems the low life knew what it was and wanted more than 100 bucks for it. Anyways, I just have always "liked" that bullet and have faith in it as it killed a large hog from 10 feet away .

Another option for you that eliminates any COAL problem is good old fashioned wadcutters.

Me and a few other load geeks on Cast Boolits have been deep down a British Webley rabbit hole in which we've been testing their low velocity 1890-1940 options against modern wound ballistic theory. We've come up with a couple formulas (one digital and one milk-jug based) that have been comparing favorably to each other and actual gelatin results.

Current digital model I plan to start testing against jugs is that a 148gr wadcutter needs only 650fps to make 19" in gel - 1" beyond FBI ideal max of 18". If made of alloy squishy enough to give slight expansion to .40 cal, that drops it to right in the middle of the "ideal" range at 14"-15".

[Diver43]

Mission is to ride on my right hip while fishing the mouth of the Blackwater river right where it empties into the Gulf and surrounding areas. There have been some issues with people being harassed by a group of semi homeless and druggies in the area. Two young boys had their fishing gear and cooler taken away. I always have my P3AT in my pocket, but feel in this instance more is better. One was caught while trying to argue with a pawn shop as the boy had Dads Shimano Stella reel taken from him. Seems the low life knew what it was and wanted more than 100 bucks for it. Anyways, I just have always "liked" that bullet and have faith in it as it killed a large hog from 10 feet away .

Another option for you that eliminates any COAL problem is good old fashioned wadcutters.

Me and a few other load geeks on Cast Boolits have been deep down a British Webley rabbit hole in which we've been testing their low velocity 1890-1940 options against modern wound ballistic theory. We've come up with a couple formulas (one digital and one milk-jug based) that have been comparing favorably to each other and actual gelatin results.

Current digital model I plan to start testing against jugs is that a 148gr wadcutter needs only 650fps to make 19" in gel - 1" beyond FBI ideal max of 18". If made of alloy squishy enough to give slight expansion to .40 cal, that drops it to right in the middle of the "ideal" range at 14"-15".

I had looked at wad cutters. I also thought about grabbing a box of the buffalo bore heavy in .38 spl +p. Which launches them right around 1100fps from my 3" barrel or just load up some 158s with a lower end load of H110. Lots of options once you peak into the rabbit hole.

[Bigslug]

I had looked at wad cutters. I also thought about grabbing a box of the buffalo bore heavy in .38 spl +p. Which launches them right around 1100fps from my 3" barrel or just load up some 158s with a lower end load of H110. Lots of options once you peak into the rabbit hole.

Did that testing today, in fact:

HG50 Chrono & Jugs 2.jpg (41.89 KiB) Viewed 415 times

These are some @ 145 grain Hensley & Gibbs # 50's that I cast of out of some middle-hard range scrap. 2.8 grains of Bullseye got them averaging 623 fps out of a 1.87" Smith; about 680fps averaging between a 4" Ruger and a 6" Smith; and 860 fps out of a 16" Marlin.

Penetration test for the little J-frame gave me some weird recovery results on the jugs. The two shots I took beat up the boundary layer between jugs 5 and 6 with one being recovered outside the jugs and my rows of flankers. Solidly a 19" gel equivalent penetrator - possibly as much as 21"

Also did a jug shot with the carbine with the same load. Recovered from jug #7 with no damage to the back wall. With the Fairburn formula I've been using applied, this works out to 25" in gel.

Given the good penetration out of the snubby, I may repeat the experiment casting with a softer alloy to try getting a small amount of nose widening. I might bump the powder charge a little in that case, but even in the scandium-frame belly gun, it's MILD.

[Diver43]

That's some good penetration
Im curious of how fast you can get them moving
Good Science

[Diver43]

I had looked at wad cutters. I also thought about grabbing a box of the buffalo bore heavy in .38 spl +p. Which launches them right around 1100fps from my 3" barrel or just load up some 158s with a lower end load of H110. Lots of options once you peak into the rabbit hole.

Did that testing today, in fact:

HG50 Chrono & Jugs 2.jpg

These are some @ 145 grain Hensley & Gibbs # 50's that I cast of out of some middle-hard range scrap. 2.8 grains of Bullseye got them averaging 623 fps out of a 1.87" Smith; about 680fps averaging between a 4" Ruger and a 6" Smith; and 860 fps out of a 16" Marlin.

Penetration test for the little J-frame gave me some weird recovery results on the jugs. The two shots I took beat up the boundary layer between jugs 5 and 6 with one being recovered outside the jugs and my rows of flankers. Solidly a 19" gel equivalent penetrator - possibly as much as 21"

Also did a jug shot with the carbine with the same load. Recovered from jug #7 with no damage to the back wall. With the Fairburn formula I've been using applied, this works out to 25" in gel.

Given the good penetration out of the snubby, I may repeat the experiment casting with a softer alloy to try getting a small amount of nose widening. I might bump the powder charge a little in that case, but even in the scandium-frame belly gun, it's MILD.

And Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman .38spl +P uses a 158gr Keith bullet at just over 1100fps out of a 3" inch barrel

[Bigslug]

That's some good penetration
Im curious of how fast you can get them moving
Good Science

Probably as fast as you can reasonably go, if you get the alloy and lube right, however the whole point of that particular exercise was not to. We've been operating largely off the post-Miami conventional wisdom of foot-pounds and temporary cavity at handgun speeds being irrelevant, with shot placement and penetration being the key thing. "Project Webley" - if you want to call it that - has been largely about testing the Brit's late 19th-to-mid-20th Century ballistic notions behind the several profiles of .455 and even the reputed-to-tumble .38/200 and finding that they hold up against the current FBI protocol surprisingly well. Peak velocity of ANY of that was under 750 fps, and a good bit closer to 600.

My three favorites from the project:

380-200 Jug 4.1.jpeg (14.29 KiB) Viewed 345 times

This was the NOE Molds authentically-copied 200 grain MKI bullet for the 1930's - WW2 era Webley MKIV .38S&W. Bullet is lying on top of a sheet of soda can aluminum that I placed between the gallon jugs to better register the tumbling effect. Jury is still out on to what degree they'll swap ends in calibrated gel, but our best data indicates that it's exceeding the top end of the FBI penetration threshold, which is fine for a military round. Lobbed out around 590 fps.

.455 MK4 Test 3.jpeg (103.31 KiB) Viewed 345 times

This is an MP Molds clone of the 220 grain .455 MKIV hollow-based wadcutter that had a really brief service life between the Hague Convention rejection of the MKIII (more on this in a moment) and the re-adoption of the conical/round nose MKII. 725 fps and 17-18" of gel-equivalent penetration.

.455 MK3 Test 3.jpeg (115.97 KiB) Viewed 345 times

The 218 grain MKIII "Manstopper" was a weird bullet with a hollowed-out wadcutter nose AND a hollow base. You can only make that by swaging the bullet with equipment I don't have, but I cast the MKIV bullet above out of a softer alloy and loaded it backwards to get the hollow point for this test. Basically same speed as the MKIV. Opened to about .75" and only gave 9" of gel equivalent penetration. Crappy by modern standards, but exactly what Phillip Webley was after in his 1899 patent. Wasn't around long before it got Hagued out of service. Probably would have been great on frontal shots against skinny aboriginals, but would unquestionably fail the Miami test. Shot it out of a .45C Redhawk where the hollow base wasn't needed for proper gun fit as it is in my Webley MKVI.


It's all been a real eye opener that you don't need "Thunder of the Gods" to get the job done.

[Wambli Ska]

Absolutely deadly on milk jugs...
Maybe we can get Zee to shoot a pig with one of those and do some of his "science"?

[Diver43]

Absolutely deadly on milk jugs...
Maybe we can get Zee to shoot a pig with one of those and do some of his "science"?

Zee, paging @Zee. Maybe?