.22lr For Personal Defense - Science

[Zee]

I know it’s been talked about all over the place. There are YouTube videos and gel tests, meat tests, barrier tests, etc. So let’s revisit it with SCIENCE!
CPJ recently acquired a P17 like mine and was curious as to its defensive capabilities for his daughter. Using his Jedi Mind Trick, he talked me into using it on a feral pig.
We bantered about on what ammo to use. Mini-Mags weee mentioned but I didn’t have any and couldn’t find any. What I did have, were the following.
40gr CCI Fragmenting
36gr Remington HVHP
40gr Remington SVRN

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We discussed using one type or all of them. Then, the question as to how many times to shoot the pig.
I finally decided I would shoot 3 times quickly and reassess.
First - 40gr Frag
Second - 36gr HVHP
Third - 40gr SVRN
Distance was less than 5 yards and (according to the timer on the video) I sent the three rounds in less than a second into the aortic arch area.

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This is a screen shot of the first round impacting. Interesting enough, going frame by frame, the pig moves ever so slightly towards me with every impact. They fast!
She ran a a half circle one direction in the pen. Then, turned and ran 3/4 circle the other direction and stopped. Stumbled a bit and stood still. Stumbled around a bit and, after less than a minute or so, I decided to give her three more 40gr SVRN bullets to the same impact location.
At the shots, she ran forward a 1/4 circle, stopped, stumbled backwards, and fell over. After a couple breaths, she was done.

6 shots with the .22lr P17
1-40gr Fragmenting
1-36gr HVHP
4-40gr SVRN

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(My buddy that traps the pigs.)
She weighed 170lbs live weight.

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Autopsy to follow…..

[Varmintmist]

I would prefer to be missed by a 44 than hit with a 22. Not real surprised by the actions.

My guess's when you crack her open is that; the damage will be more laceration than hydro static. The frag didnt make it to anything important.

[CPJ 2.0]

WHAT DO WE WANT!?!

[CPJ 2.0]

Video of the incident.



https://youtu.be/IpeHplkQvCE

[Bigslug]

Autopsy pending. . . I really miss the "Popcorn" emoji from two forum iterations back.

Does this thread qualify as "blooding" the new forum?

[GrapeApe]

My predictions.
The 36gr looks like a RN,
The frag made it 4-6"
and the 4 RN still look like RN.

That's only for any round that did not strike bone.

The only subsonic HPs (and pretty much ALL 36-40gr 22LR is subsonic from a handgun) I've ever had expand in wet newsprint or cleargel is CCI's 40gr SSHP, and they make a PRETTY mushroom. Their SSHP segmented makes an approx 4" triangle 4-6" in. The bonus is, the SSHP and the segmented hit the same POI out to 100 yards

[GrapeApe]

I use the segmented for raccoon sized vermin on my front deck and the SSHP for larger vermin around the house, up to coyote. Have only had 1 of the segments exit and hit my deck

[Zee]

Video of the incident.



https://youtu.be/IpeHplkQvCE

Sorry for the poor video quality. CPJ did as best he could to edit me out of the picture and the video suffered. Price of anonymity.

He did the best he could.

[CPJ 2.0]

Video of the incident.



https://youtu.be/IpeHplkQvCE

Sorry for the poor video quality. CPJ did as best he could to edit me out of the picture and the video suffered. Price of anonymity.

He did the best he could.

It’s hard to do when you’re the same height as the pig

[Zee]

Meanie.

[Diver43]

Will be interesting to see what the insides look like

[Zee]

Entrance

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6 shots exiting the on side shoulder and entering the chest.

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(Two had basically the same hole.)

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Of the 6 shots(3x3), 4 of them hit the heart/aortic arch and two hit just above the heart lungs/aortic arch. Kinda pleased with that shooting. By the third shot of both volleys, the pig was moving and I had to track the movement.

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Entrance to vitals.

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Center of vitals.

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The green arrows are the path of the Fragmenting bullet. It made it to the vitals in 3 sections. None of the fragments were recovered.

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Exit from vitals.

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Two of the solids were recovered under the hide of the off side. One recovered in the brisket.

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The HP was recovered in the off side shoulder.

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I suspect that the 4th solid exited low in the brisket. There was much damage there and I couldn’t find it anywhere else.

Break……..because I’m not sure how many pics this forum can handle in a post.

[Zee]

These are the recovered bullets.
3 Solids
1 HP

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Several ribs were broken but no major bones. The deviation of the bullet paths was somewhat amazing. They zig-zagged their way through the chest cavity. Expected, but still surprising.
I’ve come to the conclusion ballistic gel reacts NOTHING like meat and bone. Gel is about as useful as water. Its only attribute is that it’s repeatable. Far cry from reality. Not useless. Just……not real. It’s repeatable. So, useful for comparing multiple bullets. But, you DO NOT get the actual results on live tissue.

My take away from this…….can the .22 LR be used for defense in situations of recoil/nose aversion? Yes. BUT…….you better be fast and you better be accurate. And, you better shoot until the threat goes away. It took 6 shots through the heart/aortic arch to put this 170lb pig on the ground. And, by the third shot of each volley, the pig had moved and I had to track my POA.
Solids are King! At least of the 3 I tested.
Velocity is none existent. But, penetration was adequate. Getting to the center of the Tootsie Pop and beyond is important when you don’t have velocity to cause hydrostatic shock.
Shoot fast. Shoot accurately. Shoot until the threat goes away.

[Chiro1989]

I am kind of impressed the solids made it through that big of a pie to the off side, at a pistol velocity no less

[Zee]

Agree.

[GrapeApe]

The 36gr still looks like a round nose
The 3 recovered solids appear to have struck bones
And not sure how deep the frags actually penetrated

[Zee]

The 36gr still looks like a round nose
The 3 recovered solids appear to have struck bones
And not sure how deep the frags actually penetrated

There were several ribs struck on entrance and the off side ribs/brisket were mangled. Assumption is deformation occurred from rib strikes as no solid bone was struck (leg bones).
The frag bullet exited the off side lungs (as seen in the off side vitals pic) but I was unable to track their path afterwards and did not recover any of the known fragments.

[Castle]

"Shoot fast. Shoot accurately. Shoot until the threat goes away."

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I keep on hand for porch vermin, it's loaded with 40 grain Velocitors and does a good job on raccoons. In an emergency, I'd used it for HD.

Thanks for posting that, great info. Not unexpected but reassuring. No one would want a 30 round mag dump of lowly 22lr anywhere on their body.

[Zee]

"Shoot fast. Shoot accurately. Shoot until the threat goes away."

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I keep on hand for porch vermin, it's loaded with 40 grain Velocitors and does a good job on raccoons. In an emergency, I'd used it for HD.

Thanks for posting that, great info. Not unexpected but reassuring. No one would want a 30 round mag dump of lowly 22lr anywhere on their body.

Agreed.

[GrapeApe]

22LR still wouldn't be my first choice, if other options were available, but it's a LOT better choice than a knife, a fist and a yell.
Nice test

[GrapeApe]

I think I still have some velocitors around here. Guess I should try a couple and see if they're sub or super from my 6".
I've never done an expansion test with them from any bbl length

[Freezer]

Great post Myth Buster!

[Varmintmist]

The frag surprised me on the piggy. I didnt think it would penetrate to any worthwhile depth.

No it wouldnt be my go to, however considering someone underarmed who was able to use a 22 would be a mistake.

Nice job Quincy

[Bigslug]

A round of applause for the shot placement!

VERY helpful to know that a 36 grain HP can penetrate across the chest cavity of a 170 pound mammal, even at belly gun barrel velocity. Given that the front end sheared off, though, and turned the bullet into a reduced-mass wadcutter, I'd probably be inclined to stick with a high-velocity soft-metal solid that's going to hold onto its weight and turn itself into a basically the same shape (flat point) for defense - Thunderbolts, maybe? Pretty clear that the HP's are the way to roll for small game though.

The fragmenting round seems to be able to penetrate enough, and I have to wonder what a swarm of them would accomplish, but given that each frag is only about 13 grains, tumbling randomly, it isn't filling me with warm, fuzzy confidence.

[DanielChamberlain]

Interesting test.
Based on some of the videos making the circuit, some people absorb 9mm and .40 rounds like that. Normally, they are on their "Death Run," or they are chemically resistant to trauma.

But for the typical miscreant you are likely to encounter, the pig doesn't have that morality awareness that will allow them to "quit" and run. They know it's bad. They know they don't like it. But they don't know their time on Earth is limited.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But I wouldn't tell someone it's a "terrible" choice.